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[WCCF] Nvidia's Volta could launch as early as 2H 2017 ON 16nm node - Page 27

post #261 of 272
There is no hyperbole. People are actually posting saying that they expect GPU prices to never change.
post #262 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

So, what? We're supposed to pretend R&D doesn't exist, and doesn't need to be reflected in the sale price in order to make a new node profitable?

I normally am in complete agreement with you and I hate getting into these flame wars but...


I find it hard to accept the "prices are up because R&D is up" when Nvidia is boast about record profits.

They made GAAP Gross Margin of 56.1%, which is up from 55.5% a year before.

When a company is raking 56.1% more cash then the total cost of all the products they made (including unsold stock), it's hard to sell the story that they're between a rock and a hard place. While this *(probably) doesn't count the cost of Nvidia's development of pascal it DOES include the cost of materials. Such as the wafers they buy from TSMC. Which in turn means they're paying for TSMC's R&D/manufacturing cost. And there for the cost of 28nm (16nm costs won't show up until a later quarterly report).

This same BS story line was touted with kepler, and then maxwell. How 28nm was so much more expensive than 40nm.

...and yet Nvidia is boasting about record profits.

There's a reason i'm still using my 580.
Edited by serothis - 8/2/16 at 7:36am
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post #263 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

There is no hyperbole. People are actually posting saying that they expect GPU prices to never change.

Your talking about my post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Patekar View Post

Maybe I'm old, but I remember a not so distant past where we could expect more performance for the same price point.

None of this founder's edition crap.
None of this selling mid-tier dies as high end chips.

Which was followed up with ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Patekar View Post

Oh I blame lack of competition from AMD for the current price scheme.. It all started with the 7970..

Lets hope Vega breaks the trend. :^)

Why you decided to read it as "literally cards should always have the same price hurr durr" is ridiculous.
post #264 of 272
You said you once could expect more performance for the same price point. Once, that was true. I found it important to point out that the reasons why it's no longer true are not limited to "Nvidia are jerks!!!!!!omg"

You're not the only one to do this, by the way. Just about every single thread that ever mentions prices has people doing it, complaining about both red and green, but green more as of late for obvious reasons.
post #265 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

You said you once could expect more performance for the same price point. Once, that was true. I found it important to point out that the reasons why it's no longer true are not limited to "Nvidia are jerks!!!!!!omg"

You're not the only one to do this, by the way. Just about every single thread that ever mentions prices has people doing it, complaining about both red and green, but green more as of late for obvious reasons.

I'm not seeing why GX104 shouldn't be sold at the same price point. What we are seeing however is GX104 being sold at the enthusiast price point that GX100 used to occupy, and GX100 pushed into a new price point. I never stated cards can't increase in price.. that's inevitable due to inflation (value of currency dropping) and increasing costs. But we're not seeing all price points increase by a relative value, like +35$.. we're seeing everything shifted instead.

And I'm not blaming nvidia for being jerks, that's your hyperbole again. I clearly blamed the lack of competition from AMD.. which is creating this monopoly and shift in prices to begin with. And to be honest, I'm glad more people are waking up to the sudden change in pricing that happened around the 680 GTX (GK104).

Why you insist the price gauging is from other sources like increasing costs instead of competition (or lack thereof) from AMD is ... telling. Are you defending nVidia's honor from criticism? lol :^)
post #266 of 272
I didn't say it wasn't from lack of competition, I called that out directly. I'm just saying it's not the sole determinant. And you DID say you expected the same price point. You even quoted it, yourself - so please dispense with claiming you didn't say things you did say.

And the reason for the GX104->GX100 price switch is simple: Titan. Sales for the original Titan blew away even Nvidia's expectations, and set a new "normal" that they're now working with. Not sure you can really blame Nvidia for it if they put out a product at a higher price and people buy it anyway...
post #267 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

I didn't say it wasn't from lack of competition, I called that out directly. I'm just saying it's not the sole determinant. And you DID say you expected the same price point. You even quoted it, yourself - so please dispense with claiming you didn't say things you did say.

And the reason for the GX104->GX100 price switch is simple: Titan. Sales for the original Titan blew away even Nvidia's expectations, and set a new "normal" that they're now working with. Not sure you can really blame Nvidia for it if they put out a product at a higher price and people buy it anyway...

Yes, I absolutely did say that I expect GX104s to be sold a the same price point, and I still say that today. I did not however say that they should be the same price.

As for Titan.. nVidia didn't need to use GK100 to beat AMD like the generations before.. so they milked it with a "luxury" product. And later they released a cut version as the next flagship, the 780 GTX. The only reason they could do that was AMD.. the 7970 wasn't competitive enough at the time. I am however glad the 7970's relative performance increased greatly post launch. Mainly because I own one :^)
post #268 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Patekar View Post

Yes, I absolutely did say that I expect GX104s to be sold a the same price point, and I still say that today. I did not however say that they should be the same price.


Uhh.....
post #269 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

Uhh.....

Prices are segmented into tiers.. budget, mainstream, performance, enthusiast.. those are price points..

Edit:

I'll clarify. if the price on a tier increases by 10% that's inflation, R&D, production costs most likely. When the price for a tier increases by 100%, or if products are shifted in tiers with a new tier added on top.. that's lack of competition. Look at intel's lineup around the release of the core architecture, which is when AMD ceased to be a viable competitor at the mid and high end.

In GPUs nvidia shifted GX104 from being a mainstream part (ex: 560 GTX) to a performance part (ex: 680 GTX) at (or near) the top of its product stack. In the same trend we now have founders edition cards, which were first to market and came with a 100$ premium on top! They've also offset production and R&D costs, or perhaps just testing the boundaries of the market, when they increase the price point of x80 GTX cards from 549$ for the 980 GTX to $599 / $699 for the 1080 GTX.

None of this is possible if your competitor is fighting for market share...

So to sum it all up in simple terms, I do expect prices of hardware in each prince point to rise over time to offset production and R&D costs. However that is not what we're seeing.. We're seeing a shift in products across price points (like selling a medium pizza as a large for the price of a large instead of increasing the price of the large) as well as an increase in price at every price point. We're seeing a monopoly and that's what I don't like.
Edited by Lee Patekar - 8/2/16 at 10:23am
post #270 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

How about you cut it out with the personal attacks?

What personal attacks? Because I said you never say anything clearly? That you go in circles? Because that's exactly what you do, hyperboles, generalizations and nothing more
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

Microarchitecture R&D isn't even what I was referring to, it was the cost of places like TSMC to develop the technology to accurately, efficiently, and reproducibly pattern designs at the new node size. tajoh111 has already provided what I was referring to, so no links to Wikipedia required

Do I need to quote you the 3 posts you made contradicting yourself first saying about Nvidia's R&D, then spines to Manufacturing costs and now TSMC's R&D, seriously?

Oh and the links had to be provided by someone else as expected, although the information on those links are referring to 14nm FinFet, unrelated to Pascal other than serving as "reference".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

Is it "justified" to increase the price that much? No, probably not. But what I asked was why people expect zero growth in sale price, because that isn't a realistic goal. It is the nature of the technology that costs increase moving forward, and that is cold hard fact no matter how much you want to spin this as some delusion of my personal unreliability.

people shouldn't expect price increases in every generation, otherwise we would be buying 40,000.00$ Titans right now, you seem to ignore the fact that as technology advances everything goes cheaper, every single component, 8GB of VRAM now cost about the same or less than 1.5GB of VRAM 4 years ago, your cold hard fact is cold hard wrong, thanks for proving that your unreliability is not a delusion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

So, I'm asking you nicely: stick to the discussion, and stop attacking me personally.
Of course TSMC's prices on their end cover their cost of R&D. Which means that the price that they charge customers like Nvidia goes up when the cost of a new node goes up. You just reinforced my point.

I'm not attacking you, I don't care or know who you are, I'm refuting your failed attempts of arguments with either information or logic, like Nvidia increasing profit margins this year compared to the one before and with just 2 different cards on the Pascal Lineup and a GTX 1060 recently, suggesting that you're wrong again, when costs go up margins don't follow especially with low volumes markets (High End Pascal).

If you want people to stop calling you out, then stop the hyperboles, generalizations or just downright flaming like
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

But if you want things to actually change, complain about the people who are BUYING THE CARDS at the prices Nvidia sets, because they're the ones who are enabling this abrupt rise.

You might be right but suggesting to attack/flame/complain on people for buying a product is downright disgusting, I can complain about a Titan X all day long, but at the end of the day people have the right to spend their money on whatever they like however they like, you can raise awareness by stating the points I've been saying all this time about the Titan being a cut down chip, with stripped down compute and the least VRAM to x80 ratio and the highest price tag, but then you get people like you filled with hyperboles like "Why do people expect prices to not go up?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

Am I going to try to claim that Nvidia isn't gouging us due to a complete lack of competition at the high end from AMD? No, of course not. But you can't say things like "It's all Nvidia's fault for gouging us" and "Prices should never go up." There are legitimate reasons for our shiny toys to start to cost more. If you can't acknowledge that point, then we can't have a productive discussion about Nvidia's actual gouging.

Those legitimate reasons have been disproved by bigger profit margins with probably less volumen than the last 2 years, and if you can't prove any "legitimate reason" then they're not a valid reason, and even less legitimate, if you can't acknowledge this point then we can't have any productive discussion about Nvidia's actual gouging which may includes the possibility of Nvidia gouging for a reason other than lack of competition, unlikely but possible, it's all about what can be proven, what makes sense and what holds up.
Edited by Dargonplay - 8/2/16 at 11:24am
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