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[Anadtech] Full 3840 core GP 102 announced as Quadro P6000 - Page 2

post #11 of 83
Well, that was predictable.
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post #12 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by go4life View Post

That's really lame of Nvidia... They should have released Titan with the full chip and 1080ti with the one they got for Titan now.
If this new TITAN is still sold out, the next TITAN will be double cut down(like GTX780) and @ $1400-$1500 lol biggrin.gif
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post #13 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liranan View Post

This started with the last Titan series, nVidia removed FP64 and people bought it anyway as it was a gaming card. Now they will release these Quadro's and people will still buy them and all because AMD use OCL and CUDA has this market in lock down.

Given that AMD didn't include FP64 on Fiji nor did Nvidia on GM200 and both were 600mm2 dies, my best guess is that both companies realized they were at TSMC's limits and could go no further. That seems to be the upper bound for any die, really, outside of some of Intel's >$5000 processors (such as the 62-core Xeon Phis that only ever had 61 enabled thanks to yields). Nvidia's Teslas didn't even have a higher ratio. So that's kinda justifiable, and technically the Maxwell Titan, Quadro, and Tesla all had the same (crappy baseline 1/32) ratio.

As it stands, GP102 is supposedly 471mm2 while GP100 - with its HBM, FP64, and FP16 - is 610mm2. I feel safe making the assumption that GP102 lacks all those features because that puts GP102 at 50% more than GP104 in all ways - cores, ROPs (probably), memory controllers, whatever - and the die size is exactly 50% larger than GP104. GP100's size isn't cheap, and it's 30% larger than GP102 for those features. On a given wafer, you can at best make 77% as many GP100s as you can GP102s. HBM vs GDDR5X really throws a spanner in my math, because I'm not sure about the size of the memory controllers. HBM moves some of it onto the DRAM chips, doesn't it? I wouldn't be surprised if a GDDR5X version of GP100 ended up closer to 700mm2 than 600.
Edited by CynicalUnicorn - 7/25/16 at 6:14pm
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post #14 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalUnicorn View Post

Great job, Nvidia. Castrated FP64 and castrated FP16. This is more or less a Titan X 2.0 with doubled VRAM of the ECC variety. I guess things like FP64 will be saved for Teslas instead, because God forbid somebody wants to use a Quadro for that. doh.gif

Yeah no FP64 is indeed lame, but hey, at least it's better at stuff that requires less precision.
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnek View Post

Titan has support for INT8 compute, which based on my very cursory glance is a low-precision code used in deep learning. So just like the OG Titan was great for those who wanted FP64 on the cheap, this will probably be a dream to those who want INT8 on the cheap, assuming anything with comparable INT8 crunching power costs a few fold more of course.
Quote:
Finally, NVIDIA has clarified the branding a bit. Despite GeForce.com labeling it "the world’s ultimate graphics card," NVIDIA this morning has stated that the primary market is FP32 and INT8 compute, not gaming. Though gaming is certainly possible - and I fully expect they'll be happy to sell you $1200 gaming cards - the tables have essentially been flipped from the past Titan cards, where they were treated as gaming first and compute second. This of course opens the door to a proper GeForce branded GP102 card later on, possibly with neutered INT8 support to enforce the market segmentation.
post #15 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalUnicorn View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liranan View Post

This started with the last Titan series, nVidia removed FP64 and people bought it anyway as it was a gaming card. Now they will release these Quadro's and people will still buy them and all because AMD use OCL and CUDA has this market in lock down.

Given that AMD didn't include FP64 on Fiji nor did Nvidia on GM200 and both were 600mm2 dies, my best guess is that both companies realized they were at TSMC's limits and could go no further. That seems to be the upper bound for any die, really, outside of some of Intel's >$5000 processors (such as the 62-core Xeon Phis that only ever had 61 enabled thanks to yields). Nvidia's Teslas didn't even have a higher ratio. So that's kinda justifiable, and technically the Maxwell Titan, Quadro, and Tesla all had the same (crappy baseline 1/32) ratio.

As it stands, GP102 is supposedly 471mm2 while GP100 - with its HBM, FP64, and FP16 - is 610mm2. I feel safe making the assumption that GP102 lacks all those features because that puts GP102 at 50% more than GP104 in all ways - cores, ROPs (probably), memory controllers, whatever - and the die size is exactly 50% larger than GP104. GP100's size isn't cheap, and it's 30% larger than GP102 for those features. On a given wafer, you can at best make 77% as many GP100s as you can GP102s. HBM vs GDDR5X really throws a spanner in my math, because I'm not sure about the size of the memory controllers. HBM moves some of it onto the DRAM chips, doesn't it? I wouldn't be surprised if a GDDR5X version of GP100 ended up closer to 700mm2 than 600.

Thank you for the explanation. It all comes down to yield and die size, meaning these chips are physically different to the ones both AMD and nvidia have released so far.

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post #16 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnek View Post

Yeah no FP64 is indeed lame, but hey, at least it's better at stuff that requires less precision.

Is it? I do not want FP64 units in my GPU, I never use them so they simply take die area (and power?) for nothing. Even for most professional users who need a high end GPU FP64 means nothing (engineers, architects, etc.). Only high performance computing needs it so if you can design two chips I want the one without FP64 and so does almost everyone who traditionally bought the Quadro line. Tesla is where you need great FP64.

Of course 600mm² without FP64 would be even better. smile.gif
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post #17 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnek View Post

Yeah no FP64 is indeed lame, but hey, at least it's better at stuff that requires less precision.

*snip*

Hmm. What exactly would 8-bit integers be good for? You can work with -127 to 127 inclusive, which is not a particularly large range.

My understanding is that FP16 (a different low precision also advertised for Deep Learning, a kind of spooky magic that I really don't understand well/at all) won't really exist in GP102, but I'm not sure it's been confirmed that the P6000 will be gimped - I'm assuming it will be but I do not know for sure. New Titan X is running at a 1/64 ratio, as are the 1060 through 80. Since Pascal added dedicated cores for it, the older GPUs ironically handle FP16 (using FP32 cores) better than non-GP100 Pascal. In fact my 750Ti could hit ~1TFLOPS in pseudo-FP16 while the New Titan X would be stuck at about 170GFLOPS - 1/6 my cute li'l last-gen GPU.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post

Of course 600mm² without FP64 would be even better. smile.gif

5120 cores, 512-bit bus, 16GiB GDDR5X? Yes please! thumb.gif
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post #18 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post

Is it? I do not want FP64 units in my GPU, I never use them so they simply take die area (and power?) for nothing. Even for most professional users who need a high end GPU FP64 means nothing (engineers, architects, etc.). Only high performance computing needs it so if you can design two chips I want the one without FP64 and so does almost everyone who traditionally bought the Quadro line. Tesla is where you need great FP64.

Of course 600mm² without FP64 would be even better. smile.gif

I understand where you're coming from, but I'm coming at this from a "it's a Titan, it's not supposed to be a) a cut chip b) not have twice the vram just because and c) lack FP64 angle.

Well Titan X already lacked FP64 so no surprise there (but still lame), but not being a full chip AND not going overkill on vram is just inexcusable, especially when there's a $200 increase in price. This card is a 1080 Ti at its core with a Titan branding slapped on to justify the price.
Edited by magnek - 7/25/16 at 6:55pm
post #19 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalUnicorn View Post


5120 cores, 512-bit bus, 16GiB GDDR5X 4096-bit bus 16GB HBM2? Yes please! thumb.gif

rolleyes.gif
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post #20 of 83
Id rather have the 12GB vram on this for gaming like the new Titan X has, rather than 24GB worth. You wont even use the full 12GB during this cards usable life and the extra dense chips will more than likely clock worse. The only true advantage the full Titan will have is a few extra cores so no biggy. Not really worth waiting for just to have less time with the card and pay more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalUnicorn View Post

Great job, Nvidia. Castrated FP64 and castrated FP16. This is more or less a Titan X 2.0 with doubled VRAM of the ECC variety. I guess things like FP64 will be saved for Teslas instead, because God forbid somebody wants to use a Quadro for that. doh.gif

I kinda have a feeling we will see FP16 next gen on consumer cards as a way to do major speedups in the architecture when games take advantage of it. There are a lot of calculations that dont need such a large depth of number precision, and pretty much any time a calculations gets truncated at a certain level then it could take advantage of FP16. So Nvidia is probably just holding it back to pro cards so they have a "new amazing feature" to bring next gen that could give similar speedups to all games like the speedups we saw with Pascal in VR rendering.
Edited by EniGma1987 - 7/25/16 at 7:07pm
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