Overclock.net › Forums › Components › Hard Drives & Storage › SSD › TLC, the new end of the world???
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

TLC, the new end of the world???

post #1 of 36
Thread Starter 
So After being scammed on eBay and being given a 840 EVO instead of the 850 EVO i payed for, i found out the 3D V-NAND in the 850 is newer TLC and not MLC. On side note at work i've been finding it harder and hard to place purchase orders for MLC SSDs as everyone is switching over to TLC, even after the Samsung 840 incident!!! All the news articles I can find are from 2015! What news am I missing? Is V-NAND improved to not the have the voltage leak in the cells like the 840 TLC had? Have they fixed the yields the designs and or yields?
Alienware M17x-R4
(18 items)
 
Core 2 Haf
(17 items)
 
 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
i7-3920XM GTX980M G.SKILL Ripjaws 32GB Model F3-1866C10Q-32GRSL Samsung SSD 850 EVO mSATA 1TB 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
WD Blue 5400 RPM 1TB ODD Conversion w/ White Label 2TB Empty / Free Bay Converted External USB 
CoolingCoolingOSMonitor
M14x R2 10 CFM CPU fan Liquid Metal Pro Windows 10 /w Telemetry Block  1080p 120Hz eDP 
MonitorKeyboardPowerMouse
Sony FW900 @ 2304 x 1440 @ 80hz Saitek Eclipse I Dell 330 Watt Brick Logitech G500s 
OtherOther
Intel Dual Band Wireless-AC 7260 w/ BT iGPU disable / bypass 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
C2Q Q9550 ASUS P5E3 Deluxe Wifi-AP EVGA GTX 770 4GB Classified Kingston HyperX DDR3 KHX1600C9D3K2/8G 
RAMHard DriveCoolingOS
PNY 1333 55gb, 320Gb, 500GB, 1TB Corsair H80 Win 7 Ultimate 64bit 
OSOSMonitorPower
Lubuntu 13.04 x64 OS X 10.8.5 Dual 1600x1200 Dell m993s @ 70hz TX750 
Case
Haf 912 
  hide details  
Reply
Alienware M17x-R4
(18 items)
 
Core 2 Haf
(17 items)
 
 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
i7-3920XM GTX980M G.SKILL Ripjaws 32GB Model F3-1866C10Q-32GRSL Samsung SSD 850 EVO mSATA 1TB 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
WD Blue 5400 RPM 1TB ODD Conversion w/ White Label 2TB Empty / Free Bay Converted External USB 
CoolingCoolingOSMonitor
M14x R2 10 CFM CPU fan Liquid Metal Pro Windows 10 /w Telemetry Block  1080p 120Hz eDP 
MonitorKeyboardPowerMouse
Sony FW900 @ 2304 x 1440 @ 80hz Saitek Eclipse I Dell 330 Watt Brick Logitech G500s 
OtherOther
Intel Dual Band Wireless-AC 7260 w/ BT iGPU disable / bypass 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
C2Q Q9550 ASUS P5E3 Deluxe Wifi-AP EVGA GTX 770 4GB Classified Kingston HyperX DDR3 KHX1600C9D3K2/8G 
RAMHard DriveCoolingOS
PNY 1333 55gb, 320Gb, 500GB, 1TB Corsair H80 Win 7 Ultimate 64bit 
OSOSMonitorPower
Lubuntu 13.04 x64 OS X 10.8.5 Dual 1600x1200 Dell m993s @ 70hz TX750 
Case
Haf 912 
  hide details  
Reply
post #2 of 36

The 840 EVO had a problem because of the size of the TLC. The 850's TLC doesn't have the same problem because it can't. The 840 Series and 840 EVO are the only Samsung drives to have this problem because of that smaller TLC.

It's a computer!
(19 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i5-2500K @ 4.5GHz (1.368-1.384V fixed voltage) ASUS P8P67 EVO B3 (UEFI ver. 1850) GTX 780 ASUS DirectCU II (1228 / 6300, 1.180V) G.SKILL Ripjaws X 8GB (2 x 4GB) 1866MHz, CL9 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
250 GB Samsung 840 EVO (C:\) 250 GB Samsung 840 EVO (D:\) 150 GB WD VelociRaptor Samsung SH-S243N 24x DVD Burner 
Optical DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Samsung SH-S203N 20X DVD Burner Thermaltake Frio Win 7 Home Premium x64 SP1 Retail AOC G2460PG (24" 1920 x 1080 144Hz G-SYNC) 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Filco Majestouch 104-key Cherry MX Blues w/NKRO Corsair HX650 (Bronze, ordered on 12-12-2009) CM 690 Intellimouse Optical (1.1A) 1000Hz polling rate 
Mouse PadAudioAudio
Basic, but premium round X-Fi Titanium HD Klipsch ProMedia 2.1 (with 16 AWG Monster Cable... 
  hide details  
Reply
It's a computer!
(19 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i5-2500K @ 4.5GHz (1.368-1.384V fixed voltage) ASUS P8P67 EVO B3 (UEFI ver. 1850) GTX 780 ASUS DirectCU II (1228 / 6300, 1.180V) G.SKILL Ripjaws X 8GB (2 x 4GB) 1866MHz, CL9 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
250 GB Samsung 840 EVO (C:\) 250 GB Samsung 840 EVO (D:\) 150 GB WD VelociRaptor Samsung SH-S243N 24x DVD Burner 
Optical DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Samsung SH-S203N 20X DVD Burner Thermaltake Frio Win 7 Home Premium x64 SP1 Retail AOC G2460PG (24" 1920 x 1080 144Hz G-SYNC) 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Filco Majestouch 104-key Cherry MX Blues w/NKRO Corsair HX650 (Bronze, ordered on 12-12-2009) CM 690 Intellimouse Optical (1.1A) 1000Hz polling rate 
Mouse PadAudioAudio
Basic, but premium round X-Fi Titanium HD Klipsch ProMedia 2.1 (with 16 AWG Monster Cable... 
  hide details  
Reply
post #3 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdoublejj View Post

So After being scammed on eBay and being given a 840 EVO instead of the 850 EVO i payed for, i found out the 3D V-NAND in the 850 is newer TLC and not MLC. On side note at work i've been finding it harder and hard to place purchase orders for MLC SSDs as everyone is switching over to TLC, even after the Samsung 840 incident!!! All the news articles I can find are from 2015! What news am I missing? Is V-NAND improved to not the have the voltage leak in the cells like the 840 TLC had? Have they fixed the yields the designs and or yields?


Dude, 3D TLC endurance wise is pretty much regular planar MLC or a lil bit better.


Even planar TLC can go up to 700 TB written before dying, Tech Report did an endurance test, and that was before 3D VNAND was even available, which increases endurance across the board, TLC or MLC.
     
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Ryzen R7 1700x Gigabyte Aorus AX370 Gaming 5 ASUS GTX 1080 Turbo @ 2050mhz G.Skill DDR4 16GB 8GBx2 3200 mhz 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Samsung 750 Evo 250GB Crucial m500 960GB OCZ Trion 150 960GB Samsung 960 Evo 1TB m.2 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Crucial MX300 2TB DVD drive Corsair H60 2013 edition windows 10 home 
MonitorPowerCaseMouse
32inch Crossover 4K Thermaltake SMART M series 750W Powerspec G418 case Thermal 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
i7 4910mq GTX 880m (GK104 with 8GB VRAM) 16 GB DDR3 3x Samsung 840 EVO in RAID 0 (1.31 TB total) 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Samsung M9T 2TB HDD Bluray/DVD drive Bluray/DVD drive Window 7 Home Premium 
MonitorPower
Panasonic 2880x1620 panel 180w Delta brick 
  hide details  
Reply
     
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Ryzen R7 1700x Gigabyte Aorus AX370 Gaming 5 ASUS GTX 1080 Turbo @ 2050mhz G.Skill DDR4 16GB 8GBx2 3200 mhz 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Samsung 750 Evo 250GB Crucial m500 960GB OCZ Trion 150 960GB Samsung 960 Evo 1TB m.2 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Crucial MX300 2TB DVD drive Corsair H60 2013 edition windows 10 home 
MonitorPowerCaseMouse
32inch Crossover 4K Thermaltake SMART M series 750W Powerspec G418 case Thermal 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
i7 4910mq GTX 880m (GK104 with 8GB VRAM) 16 GB DDR3 3x Samsung 840 EVO in RAID 0 (1.31 TB total) 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Samsung M9T 2TB HDD Bluray/DVD drive Bluray/DVD drive Window 7 Home Premium 
MonitorPower
Panasonic 2880x1620 panel 180w Delta brick 
  hide details  
Reply
post #4 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChronoBodi View Post


Dude, 3D TLC endurance wise is pretty much regular planar MLC or a lil bit better.


Even planar TLC can go up to 700 TB written before dying, Tech Report did an endurance test, and that was before 3D VNAND was even available, which increases endurance across the board, TLC or MLC.

 

We're talking about the gradual slow-down of read speeds on old data. That's the problem that the 840 Series and 840 EVO has.

It's a computer!
(19 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i5-2500K @ 4.5GHz (1.368-1.384V fixed voltage) ASUS P8P67 EVO B3 (UEFI ver. 1850) GTX 780 ASUS DirectCU II (1228 / 6300, 1.180V) G.SKILL Ripjaws X 8GB (2 x 4GB) 1866MHz, CL9 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
250 GB Samsung 840 EVO (C:\) 250 GB Samsung 840 EVO (D:\) 150 GB WD VelociRaptor Samsung SH-S243N 24x DVD Burner 
Optical DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Samsung SH-S203N 20X DVD Burner Thermaltake Frio Win 7 Home Premium x64 SP1 Retail AOC G2460PG (24" 1920 x 1080 144Hz G-SYNC) 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Filco Majestouch 104-key Cherry MX Blues w/NKRO Corsair HX650 (Bronze, ordered on 12-12-2009) CM 690 Intellimouse Optical (1.1A) 1000Hz polling rate 
Mouse PadAudioAudio
Basic, but premium round X-Fi Titanium HD Klipsch ProMedia 2.1 (with 16 AWG Monster Cable... 
  hide details  
Reply
It's a computer!
(19 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i5-2500K @ 4.5GHz (1.368-1.384V fixed voltage) ASUS P8P67 EVO B3 (UEFI ver. 1850) GTX 780 ASUS DirectCU II (1228 / 6300, 1.180V) G.SKILL Ripjaws X 8GB (2 x 4GB) 1866MHz, CL9 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
250 GB Samsung 840 EVO (C:\) 250 GB Samsung 840 EVO (D:\) 150 GB WD VelociRaptor Samsung SH-S243N 24x DVD Burner 
Optical DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Samsung SH-S203N 20X DVD Burner Thermaltake Frio Win 7 Home Premium x64 SP1 Retail AOC G2460PG (24" 1920 x 1080 144Hz G-SYNC) 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Filco Majestouch 104-key Cherry MX Blues w/NKRO Corsair HX650 (Bronze, ordered on 12-12-2009) CM 690 Intellimouse Optical (1.1A) 1000Hz polling rate 
Mouse PadAudioAudio
Basic, but premium round X-Fi Titanium HD Klipsch ProMedia 2.1 (with 16 AWG Monster Cable... 
  hide details  
Reply
post #5 of 36
I'm getting ready to pick up the new Sandisk X400 512GB SSD that's TLC nand. From the benchmarks, it doesn't look any different in speed vs an MLC nand SSD. I'm really hoping with the m.2 interface I don't bottleneck my new Shy Lake system (or Kaby Lake) with just a ACHI SSD and not NVME... I'm basically looking at spending around $650 on a new i7, motherboard, DDR4, and m.2 drive for a solid ITX gaming rig for the next 5+ years...
post #6 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdoublejj View Post

... everyone is switching over to TLC, even after the Samsung 840 incident!!! ...

Typical race to the bottom, everyone wants cheaper SSDs regardless of the drops in quality and reliability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdoublejj View Post

... Is V-NAND improved to not the have the voltage leak in the cells like the 840 TLC had? ...

The 840 EVO used a 19nm process, the 32-layer 850 EVO uses a larger 40nm process. With NAND cells, size matters, particularly when you're cramming 3 bits/8 voltage states inside (TLC).

Now consider that for instance the 750 EVO uses 16nm planar TLC ...
HAL-9011
(14 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Phenom II 960T X6 4.1GHz ASUS M4A89GTD Pro Radeon HD 6870 16 GB DDR3 1600MHz 8·8·8·24 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
OCZ Vertex 4 128GB OCZ Vertex 2 120GB WD Caviar Black 1TB LG DVD-RW 
CoolingCoolingOSOS
Noctua NH-D14 Accelero S1 R.2 + 2x NF-F12 Se7en x64 Se7en x32 
PowerCase
Antec TP-650W CM HAF 912 + 
  hide details  
Reply
HAL-9011
(14 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Phenom II 960T X6 4.1GHz ASUS M4A89GTD Pro Radeon HD 6870 16 GB DDR3 1600MHz 8·8·8·24 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
OCZ Vertex 4 128GB OCZ Vertex 2 120GB WD Caviar Black 1TB LG DVD-RW 
CoolingCoolingOSOS
Noctua NH-D14 Accelero S1 R.2 + 2x NF-F12 Se7en x64 Se7en x32 
PowerCase
Antec TP-650W CM HAF 912 + 
  hide details  
Reply
post #7 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoCables View Post

The 840 EVO had a problem because of the size of the TLC. The 850's TLC doesn't have the same problem because it can't. The 840 Series and 840 EVO are the only Samsung drives to have this problem because of that smaller TLC.
Which has been fixed by updates later, much later. And it is fixed for some time now. Even the nonEVO supposedly had a fix released not so long ago.

I still wouldn't touch a cheap TLC unless it was very different from 840 EVO TLC technology is such a way that the issue is resolved. Samsung at least has the firmware to make the TLCs work, but who knows if other brands and their TLC chips suffer from the same issues and if their firmware fixes it.

How is it physically impossible for 850 EVO TLC to suffer the same issues???
Edited by JackCY - 7/27/16 at 9:33am
post #8 of 36
Thread Starter 
The last fix i tried some time ago wouldn't apply to my Uncle's 840 either his doesn't have the issue or i need to retry with the later updates. Thanks for the replies guys, learning a lot here!
Alienware M17x-R4
(18 items)
 
Core 2 Haf
(17 items)
 
 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
i7-3920XM GTX980M G.SKILL Ripjaws 32GB Model F3-1866C10Q-32GRSL Samsung SSD 850 EVO mSATA 1TB 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
WD Blue 5400 RPM 1TB ODD Conversion w/ White Label 2TB Empty / Free Bay Converted External USB 
CoolingCoolingOSMonitor
M14x R2 10 CFM CPU fan Liquid Metal Pro Windows 10 /w Telemetry Block  1080p 120Hz eDP 
MonitorKeyboardPowerMouse
Sony FW900 @ 2304 x 1440 @ 80hz Saitek Eclipse I Dell 330 Watt Brick Logitech G500s 
OtherOther
Intel Dual Band Wireless-AC 7260 w/ BT iGPU disable / bypass 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
C2Q Q9550 ASUS P5E3 Deluxe Wifi-AP EVGA GTX 770 4GB Classified Kingston HyperX DDR3 KHX1600C9D3K2/8G 
RAMHard DriveCoolingOS
PNY 1333 55gb, 320Gb, 500GB, 1TB Corsair H80 Win 7 Ultimate 64bit 
OSOSMonitorPower
Lubuntu 13.04 x64 OS X 10.8.5 Dual 1600x1200 Dell m993s @ 70hz TX750 
Case
Haf 912 
  hide details  
Reply
Alienware M17x-R4
(18 items)
 
Core 2 Haf
(17 items)
 
 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
i7-3920XM GTX980M G.SKILL Ripjaws 32GB Model F3-1866C10Q-32GRSL Samsung SSD 850 EVO mSATA 1TB 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
WD Blue 5400 RPM 1TB ODD Conversion w/ White Label 2TB Empty / Free Bay Converted External USB 
CoolingCoolingOSMonitor
M14x R2 10 CFM CPU fan Liquid Metal Pro Windows 10 /w Telemetry Block  1080p 120Hz eDP 
MonitorKeyboardPowerMouse
Sony FW900 @ 2304 x 1440 @ 80hz Saitek Eclipse I Dell 330 Watt Brick Logitech G500s 
OtherOther
Intel Dual Band Wireless-AC 7260 w/ BT iGPU disable / bypass 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
C2Q Q9550 ASUS P5E3 Deluxe Wifi-AP EVGA GTX 770 4GB Classified Kingston HyperX DDR3 KHX1600C9D3K2/8G 
RAMHard DriveCoolingOS
PNY 1333 55gb, 320Gb, 500GB, 1TB Corsair H80 Win 7 Ultimate 64bit 
OSOSMonitorPower
Lubuntu 13.04 x64 OS X 10.8.5 Dual 1600x1200 Dell m993s @ 70hz TX750 
Case
Haf 912 
  hide details  
Reply
post #9 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackCY View Post


Which has been fixed by updates later, much later. And it is fixed for some time now.

 

Thank you, but obviously I know this already and I have known ever since the beginning. You were there in the same threads that I was. Remember?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackCY View Post


Even the nonEVO supposedly had a fix released not so long ago.

 

Interesting. So, the fact that the 840 Series has the same problem was finally acknowledged and fixed?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackCY View Post


I still wouldn't touch a cheap TLC unless it was very different from 840 EVO TLC technology is such a way that the issue is resolved. Samsung at least has the firmware to make the TLCs work, but who knows if other brands and their TLC chips suffer from the same issues and if their firmware fixes it.

How is it physically impossible for 850 EVO TLC to suffer the same issues???

 

19nm vs. 40nm. That's all there is to it. The 40nm TLC is physically incapable of having the same problem. That's why Samsung is using it in the 850 EVO. As TELVM said, size matters here.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdoublejj View Post

The last fix i tried some time ago wouldn't apply to my Uncle's 840 either his doesn't have the issue or i need to retry with the later updates. Thanks for the replies guys, learning a lot here!

 

Does he have the 840 Series, 840 EVO, or 840 Pro?

It's a computer!
(19 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i5-2500K @ 4.5GHz (1.368-1.384V fixed voltage) ASUS P8P67 EVO B3 (UEFI ver. 1850) GTX 780 ASUS DirectCU II (1228 / 6300, 1.180V) G.SKILL Ripjaws X 8GB (2 x 4GB) 1866MHz, CL9 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
250 GB Samsung 840 EVO (C:\) 250 GB Samsung 840 EVO (D:\) 150 GB WD VelociRaptor Samsung SH-S243N 24x DVD Burner 
Optical DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Samsung SH-S203N 20X DVD Burner Thermaltake Frio Win 7 Home Premium x64 SP1 Retail AOC G2460PG (24" 1920 x 1080 144Hz G-SYNC) 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Filco Majestouch 104-key Cherry MX Blues w/NKRO Corsair HX650 (Bronze, ordered on 12-12-2009) CM 690 Intellimouse Optical (1.1A) 1000Hz polling rate 
Mouse PadAudioAudio
Basic, but premium round X-Fi Titanium HD Klipsch ProMedia 2.1 (with 16 AWG Monster Cable... 
  hide details  
Reply
It's a computer!
(19 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i5-2500K @ 4.5GHz (1.368-1.384V fixed voltage) ASUS P8P67 EVO B3 (UEFI ver. 1850) GTX 780 ASUS DirectCU II (1228 / 6300, 1.180V) G.SKILL Ripjaws X 8GB (2 x 4GB) 1866MHz, CL9 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
250 GB Samsung 840 EVO (C:\) 250 GB Samsung 840 EVO (D:\) 150 GB WD VelociRaptor Samsung SH-S243N 24x DVD Burner 
Optical DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Samsung SH-S203N 20X DVD Burner Thermaltake Frio Win 7 Home Premium x64 SP1 Retail AOC G2460PG (24" 1920 x 1080 144Hz G-SYNC) 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Filco Majestouch 104-key Cherry MX Blues w/NKRO Corsair HX650 (Bronze, ordered on 12-12-2009) CM 690 Intellimouse Optical (1.1A) 1000Hz polling rate 
Mouse PadAudioAudio
Basic, but premium round X-Fi Titanium HD Klipsch ProMedia 2.1 (with 16 AWG Monster Cable... 
  hide details  
Reply
post #10 of 36
Yeah I think a fix for the 840 nonEVO was in one of the two threads where 840 EVO was being discussed. An update via Samsung Magician. They've actually went up in node size? Ok biggrin.gif
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: SSD
Overclock.net › Forums › Components › Hard Drives & Storage › SSD › TLC, the new end of the world???