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Titan X Pascal Waterblock release date expectations - Page 11

post #101 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisxIxCross View Post

On another note, why the delay with the Titan X backplates? Are you guys just milling out a lot of plates atm so you will have sufficient stock?

I bet that their back plate designer guy (or gal) is in prison... along with the web dev who would otherwise be able to put renders, add some reference data, and all of the other stuff to be done when adding new parts to the catalog, so that we could preorder the backplate.

Time for a GoFundMe to get a lawyer for Mr./Mrs. backplate designer.
    
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post #102 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by DNMock View Post

Glad I went ahead and ordered from the web shop then.

While I mean no disrespect to the thermal pads from EK, they are pretty nice, since we are talking about Titans here, might as well go all out and get the high end fujipoly thermal pads. Couldn't find anywhere that listed the thicknesses of the thermal pads the blocks are using, by chance could you inform me?

The stuff EK provides is already better than it needs to be, I figured that out the hard way. Assume a simplified heat transfer path from the GPU components->to the pad->to the block->to the water->to the rad->to atmosphere. I believe that once the system is running and mo, the least effective step determines its performance. So, of all of those steps, I would take a guess that GPU->pad->block is one of the most efficient already. Just a guess while making several assumptions... I bet the least efficient step is removing the heat from the water through the radiator material and to atmosphere.

For my NCase mITX config with a CPU & GPU in a custom loop with one 240mm rad only 30mm thick (and getting little airflow), effectively cooling a %150 OCed Titan X and a 4790k running all cores at 4.4GHz under full load was not gonna happen . The loop would look to hit equilibrium at roughly ~60C after a couple of minutes, but then the loop temp would slowly increase... thermal runaway since the rad couldn't remove heat from the loop as fast as the GPU&CPU were adding it. I assumed this would happen when planning the system... I looked forward to seeing it I could make it work anyway, and it does smile.gif. If not for Maxwell, I dunno....

Anyway, This is an extreme example, but it makes what I learned the hard way more obvious.

If I had tried to address the loops thermal runaway problem by upgrading the GPU pads from EK -> XR-M, it wouldn't have done a damn thing to address the issue... the pad efficiency wasn't in any way a contributor to the bottleneck in the system, removing heat from the coolant into atmosphere. Generalizing this, my conclusion is that unless the pads ARE the weakest link in the cooling system, upgrading them is a waste of time and $$. Maybe that happens in LN2? I dunno

It is easy to see how well the EK pads work in practice too... once I remove load, my GPU and VRM temps drop significantly... effectively instantly... probably closely match to match the block temp. Then it takes a while for the whole loop to cool down while waiting for the rad to do its thing.


When I posted below, I didn't think about the theory of it when I decided to upgrade pads, other than "well, I can replace these pads with some new pads with a way bigger number for an important performance capability of the pad, which obviously means the pad is better. Obviously if I replace the EK pad with the "bigger number is better" pads... good thing will happen right? Straight forward logic indeed smile.gif.

Before and after I swapped pads I observed data gathered via an infrared probe, temp sensors mounted in areas of interest (like above the VRMs on the back plate) feeding an Aquaero 6XT, and finally all the built in sensors. Before and after I swapped pads, I could not see a single data set indicating a change in performance one way or the other. If anything I was lucky it wasn't much worse after installing the new pads, they suck compared to the EK ones, the don't like to stretch when compressing, they like to break. The material behaved in unpredictable ways when being compressed, and it wouldn't adhere to anything. I confirmed my experiences with this stuff were the same as others... who bought it probably thinking the same thing I was, this is the best stuff, I must get it.
and I did waste almost $100, so there is that smile.gif.

Here is the post when I got this stuff:
Quote:
Originally Posted by craftyhack 
I just ordered enough of the Fujipoly Ultra Extreme (designated XR-M) to redo my whole block and backplate including the extra areas as recommended by Gabrielzm here:http://www.overclock.net/t/1546747/official-nvidia-geforce-gtx-titan-x-owners-club/5260#post_23793395

*OUCH*, not cheap,

I have enough (I think) whether I need .5 or 1mm for GDDR5 for the back plate(still have to sort that out), and including all of the other pads, it was $80 ($92 shipped)!! I am not really complaining as I had plenty of cheaper options... I am just surprised at how expensive this stuff can get. To justify spending this much on what I otherwise could have gotten for $40ish shipped is I just wanted to try it, and if I am going to go through the hours of work it takes to drain the loop, take off the block and back plate, redo all of the pads, re-install them, then refill and bleed the loop, where working in this NCase M1 is somewhat challenging. Then I won't have to wonder if cheaping out lost me a few degrees C I guess. That is my rationalization and I am sticking to it! If I had found a decent scientifically approached shootout type of review, I may have chosen differently... but I couldn't find one, oh well. Relatively speaking when looking at my rig, it isn't *that* much biggrin.gif.

I will actually have no idea how effective these are because I don't know how hot the modules (GDDR5, VRMs, etc.) are getting on my TX now, nor will I be able to tell after install if they are cooler, so I am going by the positive "anecdotalish" evidence I have found from several others that have used this stuff to address problems for other video cards, laptops, etc.

Since it took me a bit of clicking around to put this together on the different types, here are my notes that might help someone else. To break down the choices with prices (from performance-pcs), with sample pricing for (1) 100x15x.5mm pad, where watt/mk=thermal conductivity, and higher watt/mk is "better":

EK stock (3.0-5.0 watt/mK): $2.22
Fuji Premium aka G-M (6.0watt/m-k): $6.49
Fuji Extreme aka X-E (11.0 watt/mk): $13.99
Fuji Ultra Extreme aka XR-M (17.0 watt/mk): $14.99

At least when ordering the XR-M, it was much cheaper to buy the 50x60 sheets instead of the 100x15 sheets, so here is what I ordered after doing some rough measurements (where I increased all measurements to account for trimming, etc.):

Top:

Ram: 15x50x3 (3/4 sheet) 0.5mm
VRM: 15x50x2 (1/2 sheet) 0.5mm
VRM: 15x50x1 (1/4 sheet) 0.5mm
VRM: 15x25x1 (1/8 sheet) 1.5mm

Bottom:

Ram: 15x50x3 (3/4 sheet) 1.0mm
VRM: 15x50x2 (1/2 sheet) 1.5mm
VRM: 15x50x1 (1/4 sheet) 1.0mm
GPU: 15x50x1 (1/4 sheet) 1.0mm

Totals:

0.5mm 2 sheets 60mmx50mm (rounded up from 1 1/2)
1.0mm 1 sheets 60mmx50mm (rounded down from 1 1/4, will use folded .5mm extra for remainder if needed)
1.5mm 1 sheet 60mmx50mm (rounded up from 5/8)
    
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
4790k ASRock Z97E-ITX/ac Nvidia Titan X Pascal Crucial Ballistix DDR3 1600 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Samsung 840 Pro Samsung 850 Evo Panasonic UJ-265 6X 3D Blu-ray Burner BD-RE Swiftech APOGEE Drive II CPU Waterblock with In... 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
EK-FC Titan X Pascal Waterblock - Nickel/Acetal  EK-FC Titan X Pascal Backplate Alphacool NexXxoS ST30 Full Copper 240mm FrozenQ M1 NCase Reservoir 
CoolingCoolingOSMonitor
Aquaero 6 XT Fan controller Aquaero Flow Sensor, RGB Windows 10 Pro Acer X34 Predator 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Logitech G910 Orion Spectrum Silverstone SX600-G 600W NCase M1 Silver Logitech G900 Chaos Spectrum 
AudioAudioAudioAudio
Oppo HA-1 Sennheiser HD800 Veritas 2.0R as desk monitors Proceed AMP5 as desktop monitor amp until get n... 
AudioAudioAudio
Oppo PM-1 Audeze LCD-3 Audeze LCD-XC 
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
4790k ASRock Z97E-ITX/ac Nvidia Titan X Pascal Crucial Ballistix DDR3 1600 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Samsung 840 Pro Samsung 850 Evo Panasonic UJ-265 6X 3D Blu-ray Burner BD-RE Swiftech APOGEE Drive II CPU Waterblock with In... 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
EK-FC Titan X Pascal Waterblock - Nickel/Acetal  EK-FC Titan X Pascal Backplate Alphacool NexXxoS ST30 Full Copper 240mm FrozenQ M1 NCase Reservoir 
CoolingCoolingOSMonitor
Aquaero 6 XT Fan controller Aquaero Flow Sensor, RGB Windows 10 Pro Acer X34 Predator 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Logitech G910 Orion Spectrum Silverstone SX600-G 600W NCase M1 Silver Logitech G900 Chaos Spectrum 
AudioAudioAudioAudio
Oppo HA-1 Sennheiser HD800 Veritas 2.0R as desk monitors Proceed AMP5 as desktop monitor amp until get n... 
AudioAudioAudio
Oppo PM-1 Audeze LCD-3 Audeze LCD-XC 
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post #103 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by craftyhack View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
The stuff EK provides is already better than it needs to be, I figured that out the hard way. Assume a simplified heat transfer path from the GPU components->to the pad->to the block->to the water->to the rad->to atmosphere. I believe that once the system is running and mo, the least effective step determines its performance. So, of all of those steps, I would take a guess that GPU->pad->block is one of the most efficient already. Just a guess while making several assumptions... I bet the least efficient step is removing the heat from the water through the radiator material and to atmosphere.

For my NCase mITX config with a CPU & GPU in a custom loop with one 240mm rad only 30mm thick (and getting little airflow), effectively cooling a %150 OCed Titan X and a 4790k running all cores at 4.4GHz under full load was not gonna happen . The loop would look to hit equilibrium at roughly ~60C after a couple of minutes, but then the loop temp would slowly increase... thermal runaway since the rad couldn't remove heat from the loop as fast as the GPU&CPU were adding it. I assumed this would happen when planning the system... I looked forward to seeing it I could make it work anyway, and it does smile.gif. If not for Maxwell, I dunno....

Anyway, This is an extreme example, but it makes what I learned the hard way more obvious.

If I had tried to address the loops thermal runaway problem by upgrading the GPU pads from EK -> XR-M, it wouldn't have done a damn thing to address the issue... the pad efficiency wasn't in any way a contributor to the bottleneck in the system, removing heat from the coolant into atmosphere. Generalizing this, my conclusion is that unless the pads ARE the weakest link in the cooling system, upgrading them is a waste of time and $$. Maybe that happens in LN2? I dunno

It is easy to see how well the EK pads work in practice too... once I remove load, my GPU and VRM temps drop significantly... effectively instantly... probably closely match to match the block temp. Then it takes a while for the whole loop to cool down while waiting for the rad to do its thing.


When I posted below, I didn't think about the theory of it when I decided to upgrade pads, other than "well, I can replace these pads with some new pads with a way bigger number for an important performance capability of the pad, which obviously means the pad is better. Obviously if I replace the EK pad with the "bigger number is better" pads... good thing will happen right? Straight forward logic indeed smile.gif.

Before and after I swapped pads I observed data gathered via an infrared probe, temp sensors mounted in areas of interest (like above the VRMs on the back plate) feeding an Aquaero 6XT, and finally all the built in sensors. Before and after I swapped pads, I could not see a single data set indicating a change in performance one way or the other. If anything I was lucky it wasn't much worse after installing the new pads, they suck compared to the EK ones, the don't like to stretch when compressing, they like to break. The material behaved in unpredictable ways when being compressed, and it wouldn't adhere to anything. I confirmed my experiences with this stuff were the same as others... who bought it probably thinking the same thing I was, this is the best stuff, I must get it.
and I did waste almost $100, so there is that smile.gif.

Here is the post when I got this stuff:
Quote:
Originally Posted by craftyhack 
I just ordered enough of the Fujipoly Ultra Extreme (designated XR-M) to redo my whole block and backplate including the extra areas as recommended by Gabrielzm here:http://www.overclock.net/t/1546747/official-nvidia-geforce-gtx-titan-x-owners-club/5260#post_23793395

*OUCH*, not cheap,

I have enough (I think) whether I need .5 or 1mm for GDDR5 for the back plate(still have to sort that out), and including all of the other pads, it was $80 ($92 shipped)!! I am not really complaining as I had plenty of cheaper options... I am just surprised at how expensive this stuff can get. To justify spending this much on what I otherwise could have gotten for $40ish shipped is I just wanted to try it, and if I am going to go through the hours of work it takes to drain the loop, take off the block and back plate, redo all of the pads, re-install them, then refill and bleed the loop, where working in this NCase M1 is somewhat challenging. Then I won't have to wonder if cheaping out lost me a few degrees C I guess. That is my rationalization and I am sticking to it! If I had found a decent scientifically approached shootout type of review, I may have chosen differently... but I couldn't find one, oh well. Relatively speaking when looking at my rig, it isn't *that* much biggrin.gif.

I will actually have no idea how effective these are because I don't know how hot the modules (GDDR5, VRMs, etc.) are getting on my TX now, nor will I be able to tell after install if they are cooler, so I am going by the positive "anecdotalish" evidence I have found from several others that have used this stuff to address problems for other video cards, laptops, etc.

Since it took me a bit of clicking around to put this together on the different types, here are my notes that might help someone else. To break down the choices with prices (from performance-pcs), with sample pricing for (1) 100x15x.5mm pad, where watt/mk=thermal conductivity, and higher watt/mk is "better":

EK stock (3.0-5.0 watt/mK): $2.22
Fuji Premium aka G-M (6.0watt/m-k): $6.49
Fuji Extreme aka X-E (11.0 watt/mk): $13.99
Fuji Ultra Extreme aka XR-M (17.0 watt/mk): $14.99

At least when ordering the XR-M, it was much cheaper to buy the 50x60 sheets instead of the 100x15 sheets, so here is what I ordered after doing some rough measurements (where I increased all measurements to account for trimming, etc.):

Top:

Ram: 15x50x3 (3/4 sheet) 0.5mm
VRM: 15x50x2 (1/2 sheet) 0.5mm
VRM: 15x50x1 (1/4 sheet) 0.5mm
VRM: 15x25x1 (1/8 sheet) 1.5mm

Bottom:

Ram: 15x50x3 (3/4 sheet) 1.0mm
VRM: 15x50x2 (1/2 sheet) 1.5mm
VRM: 15x50x1 (1/4 sheet) 1.0mm
GPU: 15x50x1 (1/4 sheet) 1.0mm

Totals:

0.5mm 2 sheets 60mmx50mm (rounded up from 1 1/2)
1.0mm 1 sheets 60mmx50mm (rounded down from 1 1/4, will use folded .5mm extra for remainder if needed)
1.5mm 1 sheet 60mmx50mm (rounded up from 5/8)

I don't think this is the appropriate spot to discuss this but I will say that yes, the EK pads are excellent, however, the expensive fujipoly pads simply have higher thermal conductivity. In most situations the difference between the two is insignificant, but the harder you push your variables, the more noticeable the difference becomes.

It's kind of unreasonable for them to package such high thermal conductive pads with their blocks from a business standpoint. Adding the extra $10 bucks or so to every block just so the 1% of their users will have slightly lower memory and vrm temps isn't worth it.

Is the extra ~$50 bucks worth of thermal pads worth having your VRM's run at 45 C instead of 50 C under heavy load? No, but we are talking about the king of "not worth it" GPU's here biggrin.gif
post #104 of 317
More waterblock options this time from Aqua Computer including active backplates!

http://videocardz.com/63063/aqua-computer-intros-kryographics-pascal-for-nvidia-titan-x

Not as aesthetically pleasing as the EK options for my build at least but each to their own...
Edited by Siskods9 - 8/6/16 at 12:55pm
post #105 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by EK_tiborrr View Post

'Science', based on bad data or questionable at best is worse than no science.

I think the best question, isn't when or why don't you make an active backplate, but how over-engineered was the badboy that showed tangible results? about on par with the front plate im guessing?

We all know you guys made one, and kept making it bigger and meaner until it bore fruit.
Edited by DNMock - 8/7/16 at 12:22am
post #106 of 317
Looks like back plate is up on the EK site. Only black available and shipping out the 29th. Come on EK! I would buy this if you had it to me anywhere near the block ship out date but this is too far out!

It's hard enough waiting till 20thish just to try my new titan but to also have to wait till September if I want a back plate or face taking out the card again. Seriosuly bummed about this.
post #107 of 317
Thread Starter 
Tell me about it. My Titan sits in the Box again thx to EK being late... and then we dont get a backplate...
post #108 of 317
Does anyone know the screw dimensions needed to utilize the factory backplate with the EK block? I refuse to wait an extra 3 weeks for the backplate and I rather enjoy the look of the stock backplate.
post #109 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by RepTexas View Post

Does anyone know the screw dimensions needed to utilize the factory backplate with the EK block? I refuse to wait an extra 3 weeks for the backplate and I rather enjoy the look of the stock backplate.

Well I am pretty sure they aren't supporting the stock backplate so you can buy theirs smile.gif

It's same reason with the SLI bridge they are probably going to release their own bridge smile.gif
post #110 of 317
Right but normally people can rig the stock back plates to the ek waterblocks with some thermal pads and m3 6mm sunken screws if im not mistaken. I just can't remmeberfor sure of that was the size or not.
Edited by RepTexas - 8/8/16 at 6:49am
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