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[Real World Tech] Tile-based Rasterization in Nvidia GPUs - Page 3

post #21 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post

IIRC tile-based rendering was introduced into the mainstream market in the early 2000s by Imagination Technologies (now PowerVR) with the Kyro lineup... Nothing new here at all indeed.

Yep, though I'm certain NVIDIA's current implementation has been refined since then.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/735/3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post

Damn, that Kyro II could ROAST the GeForce 2 Ultra in some games for a third of the price... Those were the days.

I had a Hercules 3D Prophet 4500 Kyro II in 2001. Replaced my Geforce 256 DDR with it and replaced it in turn with a GeForce 2 Pro.

The tile based rendering was a much lauded feature of the Kyro II and the card did perform very well for the money. Still, it was less consistent and less compatible than NVIDIA/ATI's options and more often than not the GeForce 2 (the GTX/Pro/Ultra line, not the MX stuff) was faster. One notable issue I had with the Kyro II was that it didn't support OGL acceleration in Bioware's Infinity Engine games. Since I was big into the Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale series at the time, this was a problem. There were also some issues with texture filtering in some games.

I distinctly remember my 3D Prophet 4500 having almost zero overclocking ability. Core and memory had to run at the same clock and the memory it was equipped with crapped out 5MHz above stock. The Gainward Geforce 2 Pro I ended up replacing it with could do something like a 20-25% OC out of the box, which went a long way to making up for the higher cost.

Biggest downside of Kyro II was no hardware T&L, which completely crippled performance in some situations, especially if you didn't have a monster CPU.

Anyway, tile based rendering certain proved it's potential for efficiency back with the Kyro II and I'm not sure why it was neglected for so long.
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post #22 of 42

Yeah, the lack of T&L made it perform horrible in some games.

 

I never had a Kyro II (back then I was an 11 year old young'un!), but I remember reading about it on magazines and talking to Dad's friend about it (he built custom arcade machines, demo gaming rigs and such) and he was very excited about it.

 

I still have an original Kyro in the cards tray downstairs, I need to dust the benchmarking rig and have some fun with it one of these days.

   
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post #23 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post

Yeah, the lack of T&L made it perform horrible in some games.

I never had a Kyro II (back then I was an 11 year old young'un!), but I remember reading about it on magazines and talking to Dad's friend about it (he built custom arcade machines, demo gaming rigs and such) and he was very excited about it.

I still have an original Kyro in the cards tray downstairs, I need to dust the benchmarking rig and have some fun with it one of these days.

Use timespy to bench it. It might gain some suprising performance boost over other benchmarks thanks to the unbiased Nvidia codepath.

(joking aside, would love to see how some of these older graphics cards perform.)
post #24 of 42

http://hwbot.org/benchmark/3dmark2001_se/rankings?hardwareTypeId=videocard_357&cores=1#start=0#interval=20

 

Funny that my result from some years ago still holds the fifth place... And I'm not sure I was running the TEC back then!

   
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post #25 of 42
I don't think they are compatible with each other's agenda. Currently, AMD is dedicating on die cache resources to compute. AMD still has fully dedicated hardware for the memory and the chip buffers do not conflict with this, as in exhibiting reduced performance, since they are dedicated for compute.
Now, on Maxwell the caches are already prefetching for ROPs - caches are finite and so are their mobilizations. Caches cannot buffer pixel shaders & compute concurrently at full rate, we know this from gtx 970's affected results like quantum break in which its compute capability does not favour it more than other hardware with a quarter of its default compute strength such as xbox one on which platform the software runs natively. Should the buffers be help up by compute, you are still left with a slower dedicated memory bus; therefore Nvidia is still making compromises to the architecture by moving away from dedicated accelerators. Not that anybody protests, though.
Either each will make some concessions, or they will take turns imho. They aren't in a position to jeopardize their brand image none whatsoever, so I'm still erring on the side for dedicated performance.
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post #26 of 42
Basically what you're not being told is that this is a lossy system designed to increase performance at a reduction in quality. Basically the same scheme as color compression.
post #27 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by prjindigo View Post

Basically what you're not being told is that this is a lossy system designed to increase performance at a reduction in quality. Basically the same scheme as color compression.

How is it lossy, just curious.

To me it seems it breaks up the workload into smaller parts, keeping the net workload fully identical. The breaking up into small parts would have a merit when it comes to how much polygon data you need in an on-gpu-die buffer at one time, only. (since you only need to 'quick-cache' the polygon data of a small area of the full image area to do the rasterization of said small area, and then proceed to the next segment rapidly.)

edit: but yeah, you'd have to still move the needed polygon data into the gpu for every new tile, but hey you could actually do that even in 4k and up rendering, with a pretty small on-chip cache. Not entirely sure what the main advantage is altogether. You only need to move polygon data (needed for the tile) to the chip's buffer, and rasterization is then done fully on-chip, even with big video resolutions?
Edited by Tivan - 8/2/16 at 6:43am
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post #28 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by prjindigo View Post

Basically what you're not being told is that this is a lossy system designed to increase performance at a reduction in quality. Basically the same scheme as color compression.

 

In theory there is no loss in quality. The GPU only takes extra steps to analyse what it needs to render instead of just going full nuts, rendering everything and then discarding what's not visible because of its position or transparency.

 

As discussed before, the Kyro II proved that it is definitely doable, it just needs to be very refined.

   
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post #29 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by prjindigo View Post

Basically what you're not being told is that this is a lossy system designed to increase performance at a reduction in quality. Basically the same scheme as color compression.

In theory there is no loss in quality. The GPU only takes extra steps to analyse what it needs to render instead of just going full nuts, rendering everything and then discarding what's not visible because of its position or transparency.

As discussed before, the Kyro II proved that it is definitely doable, it just needs to be very refined.

This here is not the same as what's happening in the PowerVR hardware. It's not "deferred" rendering, it is still "immediate" rendering, just like normal, like in the Radeon example, except it's done in tiles instead of over the whole screen. This means there are no steps left out. It still does the same amount of work of painting and over-painting the pixels in the triangles.

The speed improvement comes from the tiles fitting into the chip's cache, not from being smart about analyzing and throwing out unneeded work like in the deferred rendering of PowerVR hardware.
post #30 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by prjindigo View Post

Basically what you're not being told is that this is a lossy system designed to increase performance at a reduction in quality. Basically the same scheme as color compression.

Neither tile based rendering nor common color compression schemes are lossy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by deepor View Post

The speed improvement comes from the tiles fitting into the chip's cache, not from being smart about analyzing and throwing out unneeded work like in the deferred rendering of PowerVR hardware.

Hidden surface removal/occlusion culling is heavily used by pretty much everyone and tile based rendering makes it easier to do. Even if the main advantage is fitting tiles in local cache, better HSR may well play a part in NVIDIA's geometry efficiency.
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i7-6800K @ 4.3/3.5GHz core/uncore, 1.36/1.2v ASRock X99 OC Formula (P3.10) GTX 780 (temporary) 4x4GiB Crucial DDR4-2400 @ 11-13-12-28-T2, 1.33v 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Intel 600p 256GB NVMe 2x HGST Travelstar 7k1000 1TB Corsair H55 (temporary) Windows Server 2016 Datacenter 
PowerCase
Seasonic SS-860XP2 Corsair Carbide Air 540 
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Primary
(15 items)
 
Secondary
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In progress
(10 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
5820K @ 4.2/3.5GHz core/uncore, 1.175/1.15v Gigabyte X99 SOC Champion (F22n) Gigabyte AORUS GTX 1080 Ti (F3P) @ 2025/1485, 1... 4x4GiB Crucial @ 2667, 12-12-12-28-T1, 1.34v 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Plextor M6e 128GB (fw 1.06) M.2 (PCI-E 2.0 2x) 2x Crucial M4 256GB 4x WD Scorpio Black 500GB Noctua NH-D15 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 7 Professional x64 SP1 BenQ BL3200PT Filco Majestouch Tenkeyless (MX Brown) Corsair RM1000x 
CaseMouseAudio
Fractal Design Define R4 Logitech G402 Realtek ALC1150 + M-Audio AV40 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
X5670 @ 4.4/3.2GHz core/uncore, 1.36 vcore, 1.2... Gigabyte X58A-UD5 r2.0 w/FF3mod10 BIOS Sapphire Fury Nitro OC+ @ 1053/500, 1.225vGPU/1... 2x Samsung MV-3V4G3D/US @ 2000, 10-11-11-30-T1,... 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
1x Crucial BLT4G3D1608ET3LX0 @ 2000, 10-11-11-3... OCZ (Toshiba) Trion 150 120GB Hyundai Sapphire 120GB 3x Hitachi Deskstar 7k1000.C 1TB 
CoolingOSPowerCase
Noctua NH-D14 Windows 7 Pro x64 SP1 Antec TP-750 Fractal Design R5 
Audio
ASUS Xonar DS 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7-6800K @ 4.3/3.5GHz core/uncore, 1.36/1.2v ASRock X99 OC Formula (P3.10) GTX 780 (temporary) 4x4GiB Crucial DDR4-2400 @ 11-13-12-28-T2, 1.33v 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Intel 600p 256GB NVMe 2x HGST Travelstar 7k1000 1TB Corsair H55 (temporary) Windows Server 2016 Datacenter 
PowerCase
Seasonic SS-860XP2 Corsair Carbide Air 540 
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