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[YouTube] Quake Champions Debut Gameplay Trailer - Page 8

post #71 of 84
I'm amused at the people decrying the "low skill ceiling" modern games while simultaneously not being able to actually run up against that ceiling.
post #72 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

I'm amused at the people decrying the "low skill ceiling" modern games while simultaneously not being able to actually run up against that ceiling.

Well, a game is only as difficult as your opponent, but I would certainly argue many modern games are dumbed down to appeal to a wider audience.
    
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post #73 of 84
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Originally Posted by i_hax View Post

Well, a game is only as difficult as your opponent, but I would certainly argue many modern games are dumbed down to appeal to a wider audience.

And I would argue that's a lazy assessment of modern games. Some games certainly are easier, but the difficulty of old games wasn't always by design, it was often by limitation. Poor controls, poor interface, poor programming, all of these contribute to what people refer to as "dumbed down" modern games.

The best example is Starcraft to Starcraft 2. When 2 was announced and went into beta, there was major rage at the "dumbed down" control system. Multiple building select? Unlimited unit select?! THE HERESY! But things like the 12-unit control group limit was an artificial limitation of the engine in Starcraft. I would be quite willing to bet that the designers would have ended up with more selectable units if they had suitable ways of implementing it. Want proof? Look at the unit selection cap in the progression of Blizzard RTS games: Warcraft 1 was 4, Warcraft 2 was 9, Starcraft was 12. And, then, they realized that 1-a-click-2-a-click-3-a-click was cruddy design, and did away with it entirely in Starcraft 2.

Did that make the game easier? Yes. Could you describe it as being "dumbed down" relative to original Starcraft? Eh, I guess. But was it really critical to the game experience, or was it just a hurdle that interfered with the game experience? Sure, the top players still managed to jump over it anyway, but did they succeed because it added strategic or tactical depth that only they could exploit or did their strategy and tactics succeed despite the limitation?

Yes, it's a choice to make games difficult or easy. One of the most important choices in game design, at that. And while games like Dark Souls go one way, plenty of others go to the opposite end.

But, critically, let us not confuse the difference between the skill ceiling that the best player in the world might or might not hit, and the skill floor required to play the game and have fun. Starcraft 2 has a much lower "you must be this skilled to have fun" level than Starcraft, and that's a good thing. If that's what you want to call "dumbing down" the game, so that the unwashed masses can play it and still have a good time, then sure. Blizzard is king in that regard, in all of the genres it touches, and Overwatch certainly has reduced that minimum threshold compared to things like Q3A.

But to then claim that the skill ceiling is reduced, simply because the skill floor to have fun got reduced? No, that doesn't necessarily follow. You'll have to prove that separately, and step one should be demonstrating that you've actually hit the cap you're complaining is too low. By all means, go win the easy money that the "low skill" games you just are way, way too sophisticated for are throwing away to those worthless scrubs who win their tournaments, and then come back and argue your point.

Quake and Overwatch are very different FPS. The style of gameplay is completely different, and I for one enjoy them both. It will be nice to have a Q3A/UT style game, with modern design and utilizing modern hardware. I think it's justified to be disappointed that Quake Champions appears to not be that game, based on the design choices it is making.

But don't for a second complain that a champion having a button that isn't "shoot gun" means the game is dumbed down, or low skill, or whatever. High level Q3A was a masterpiece of positioning and aiming, and that can still be maintained even with abilities. To prove it, I'd go with an example from Overwatch. I'd challenge anyone to say that a properly played Genji doesn't require the same level of situational awareness, technical skill, aiming accuracy, and reactions that Q3A does. That level of play can still be replicated no matter what the design is, or what the abilities do. It remains to be seen whether Quake Champions will pull it off.
Edited by Mand12 - 8/8/16 at 2:28pm
post #74 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by i_hax View Post

Well, a game is only as difficult as your opponent, but I would certainly argue many modern games are dumbed down to appeal to a wider audience.
I think it would be impossible to argue against in the context of this game, when Tim talks about his balance philosophy for Quake Champions.

http://www.polygon.com/2016/8/5/12387546/quake-champions-balance-gameplay-beta
Quote:
Champions have natural counters for one another, following a "kind of rock, paper, scissors-style approach," Willits said.
Pure skill
post #75 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by motsm View Post

I think it would be impossible to argue against in the context of this game, when Tim talks about his balance philosophy for Quake Champions.

http://www.polygon.com/2016/8/5/12387546/quake-champions-balance-gameplay-beta
Pure skill

That means one class will have an advantage over another, but a disadvantage against others (among other possibilities). Plus you'll also need to, you know, shoot better and move better than your opponent, but that has nothing to do with skill.
Edited by H3avyM3tal - 8/8/16 at 3:01pm
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post #76 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by H3avyM3tal View Post

That means one class will have an advantage over another, but a disadvantage against others (among other possibilities). Plus you'll also need to, you know, shoot better and move better than your opponent, but that has nothing to do with skill.
It's a lowering of the skill ceiling, plain and simple. It insures that a lower skilled player will never be completely dominated by a player that is just slightly better than they are. They will always be able to get a few cheap kills, simply because they arbitrarily chose Rock, and are fighting someone who happened to choose Scissors. It's the games inherent design, taking power away from the players, and giving it to a spinning wheel at the start of the match, all in the name of "modernization". Which really just means they want to attract a more mainstream casual market, since the industry has become such a swollen mess.

Of course there will always be some degree of arbitrary advantage in every game. Unless you design perfectly mirrored maps, with duplicate weapon spawns, but to me, that is a necessary evil. Heroes is taking things way too far, and completely kills everything that made Quake 3 what it was.
post #77 of 84
tongue.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by motsm View Post

It's a lowering of the skill ceiling, plain and simple. It insures that a lower skilled player will never be completely dominated by a player that is just slightly better than they are. They will always be able to get a few cheap kills, simply because they arbitrarily chose Rock, and are fighting someone who happened to choose Scissors. It's the games inherent design, taking power away from the players, and giving it to a spinning wheel at the start of the match, all in the name of "modernization". Which really just means they want to attract a more mainstream casual market, since the industry has become such a swollen mess.

Except that the most competitive game ever made, with the highest skill ceiling, Starcraft: Brood War, had assymmetric design. There were rocks, and scissors, and paper. But the highest skill players reliably won, and the people who were the best at the game are among the most technically capable players of any game ever made.

Symmetry is neither the sole metric nor even a necessary component to a high skill ceiling.
post #78 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

tongue.gif
Except that the most competitive game ever made, with the highest skill ceiling, Starcraft: Brood War, had assymmetric design. There were rocks, and scissors, and paper. But the highest skill players reliably won, and the people who were the best at the game are among the most technically capable players of any game ever made.

Symmetry is neither the sole metric nor even a necessary component to a high skill ceiling.
I specifically said asymmetrical design was necessary, so why are you acting like I disagree? You just removed it from it from your quote.

:Edit: As for the rock, paper, scissor elements, each player in Star Craft has control over their own rocks, papers, and scissors at the same time. They don't just get 1 and have to hope for the best. So I don't see a lot of use in comparing an RTS to an arena shooter.
Edited by motsm - 8/8/16 at 5:14pm
post #79 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuscleBound View Post

Kick-Ass.
I'd rather have this than all the UTs put together.
UT's is slow as a granny. When u fire the rocket launcher it first goes into weapon release animation instead of firing the rocket instantly. And the rockets are dead slow.

As someone who grew up playing both Q3A and UT it's hard for me to say UT is slow as a granny. It's just a different style arena shooter and the rockets are fine as is. The rocket spam is what makes Q3 it's own game style to be honest. Both are good in their own ways. But hey, you've got a Q3 tattoo so I need to take your UT hate with some salt. thumb.gif

I play Quake Live mostly now... but that's only because it still is fairly active and is lightweight enough to play on any pc. Come to think of it, I mostly play QL on my laptop and the UT pre alpha on my 4k setup.
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post #80 of 84
Ooooh, a Quake arena shooter! If its in the league of Q3A and not a fail like Q4, I'm there like a square bear.

Pls add Linux and Vulkan support. Pls.

Edit: Oh, and hopefully they just call it Quake, like they did with Doom.
Edited by warr10r - 8/15/16 at 7:29am
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