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Best USB Ball Mouse (Yes, you read it right) - Page 7

post #61 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by uaokkkkkkkk View Post

Wingman.


\\o//


i'm still using one, with deathadder optics (3668) built in, works great. it's light, about 70 grams, and the shape is bliss. people have been asking for a modern version for years. but apparently, space ships are easier to make.

now as for ball vs optical, an optical stops exactly where you want, while balls continue to roll a bit when you lift the mouse. very confusing if you're used opticals. i didn't notice it back then, but now i do...
post #62 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post


Tolerances? we're talking about precise xy motion.. Show me one measurement tool which moves that goes down to 0.02mm made of plastic..


Lego has nothing to do with this.. Just because you can create plastic objects in the shape you want, does not mean it can perform with the consistency necessary.


It has very little to do with critical dimension. It has to do with Translating mechanical motion.. You have so much lose from a wobbly plastic parts, that any true precision goes out the window..

 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with plastic parts for precision movement transmission at very small amounts of torque.

 

It doesn't matter if it's wobbly (size it right and it won't be), as long as the part has been sized for the application it will be perfectly fine.

 

And no, it's not the optical encoders and rollers what limit a ball mouse. It's the ball slippage, inertia and friction against the mouse casing and encoding system what is its limit. The fact that it is a mechanism designed to operate under constant slippage.

 

Therefore inherently inaccurate versus a system that reads the surface without any mechanical interaction (such as optical imaging sensors).

   
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post #63 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by TranquilTempest View Post

Ever play with lego bricks? There are tolerances there at .0004 inches (10 µm), and that's injection molded ABS. There's only one truly critical dimension on an encoder wheel, and that's the diameter of the roller, the encoder isn't going to care if there's a couple thou of runout on the code wheel. Small parts are relatively easy for injection molding, when you have a large part it's a lot harder to deal with varying cooling rates.

Oh, and plastics and metals both have both an elastic region and a plastic region. Even plastic won't plastically deform until you hit its yield strength.

The plastic rollers will deform a lot more than metallic ones, even from the pressure of a ball rolling against it at the speeds we're talking about here.
Of course metal also has a elastic to plastic region, but you need much higher force for that. Yield strength for steel is between 800-1000 MPa while for plastics it's between 60-100 MPa. And that is plastic deformation. Elastic (which is enough to throw off any readings) occurs immediately and to a far higher degree than with steels.

Obviously it works well enough for what it already does, but as we're talking about a ball mouse with up to 8 m/s tracking (similar to current high end optical) you'd need quite a lot of force because you push the ball into the rollers with the same amount as the friction that occurs on the ball. And good luck getting a ball or the rollers no to slip at those speeds.

EDIT: oh well, post above explains this much better already. I should probably have finished my reply earlier instead of going afk smile.gif
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post #64 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ino. View Post

The plastic rollers will deform a lot more than metallic ones, even from the pressure of a ball rolling against it at the speeds we're talking about here.
Of course metal also has a elastic to plastic region, but you need much higher force for that. Yield strength for steel is between 800-1000 MPa while for plastics it's between 60-100 MPa. And that is plastic deformation. Elastic (which is enough to throw off any readings) occurs immediately and to a far higher degree than with steels.

Obviously it works well enough for what it already does, but as we're talking about a ball mouse with up to 8 m/s tracking (similar to current high end optical) you'd need quite a lot of force because you push the ball into the rollers with the same amount as the friction that occurs on the ball. And good luck getting a ball or the rollers no to slip at those speeds.

EDIT: oh well, post above explains this much better already. I should probably have finished my reply earlier instead of going afk smile.gif
A typical mouse ball masses what, 20 grams? At 40g acceleration thats 8 newtons across a contact area of say 1mm. So that's a pressure of 8MPa, which is less than 1/8 the yield strength of plain old cheap ABS. Okay, so what happens if you drop the mouse and it's subjected to 350g acceleration? Well your ball is covered in rubber, so the contact area increases. As I said before, top speed is only an issue of how fast you want to count pulses out of the encoder, at 127khz you become limited by the 127 count limit of USB at 1khz polling rate, which would max your sensitivity at about 400cpi. If you want to write your own USB drivers you could probably get about 10x that before the transition times of the photodiode become a limiting factor.
Edited by TranquilTempest - 8/8/16 at 9:26am
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post #65 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alya View Post

Func existed in 2003? How have they not gone out of business with how bad everything they produce is?

AFAIR the Func was a hard plastic kind pad that featured two different sides and had a sticky base so that you could turn it once one side was worn out. It wasn't that bad compared to other gaming mouse pads back than. Remember that hard plastic pads were the cool back then and cloth mousepads were mostly considered oldschool and ****. Fatal1ty's fatpad was one of the first popular cloth mousepads up until then everybody used Everglide, Ratpad and such. Steelseries former name was Steelpad and their initial mousepads AFAIR were made of metal.


BTT: IMO there wasn't any mouse that could hold up to optical mice. I had a Boomslang 2000 and this thing was pure crap. Even when it was brand new it always had an unsteady cursor. I also remember that it wouldn't track reliably when moved diagonally in one direction (there were those tiny contact rolls on two sides of the mouseball - they had no contact to the mouseball when moved into the opposide direction). IMO it was unuseable. I think I spent 250 DM on it back then. mad.gif

I still remember when Microsoft's optical mice hit the shelves. They were nothing but amazing compared to everything we had back then. Within two LAN parties everybody got one (okay I bought myself a db boeder optical mouse that used green light first, it wasn't that good rolleyes.gif).
post #66 of 81
nvm wrong thread
Edited by badben25 - 8/8/16 at 4:08pm
post #67 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by TranquilTempest View Post


A typical mouse ball masses what, 20 grams? At 40g acceleration thats 8 newtons across a contact area of say 1mm. So that's a pressure of 8MPa, which is less than 1/8 the yield strength of plain old cheap ABS. Okay, so what happens if you drop the mouse and it's subjected to 350g acceleration? Well your ball is covered in rubber, so the contact area increases. As I said before, top speed is only an issue of how fast you want to count pulses out of the encoder, at 127khz you become limited by the 127 count limit of USB at 1khz polling rate, which would max your sensitivity at about 400cpi. If you want to write your own USB drivers you could probably get about 10x that before the transition times of the photodiode become a limiting factor.

 

The ball socket has auxiliary rollers inside that hold it more or less centered and also spread the load to prevent it jamming the encoders.

 

Plus you have zero need to instantly send all the encoder readings back to the computer, you can buffer, filter and average, then send.

   
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post #68 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post

The ball socket has auxiliary rollers inside that hold it more or less centered and also spread the load to prevent it jamming the encoders.
All of mine had 1 extra roller, with a spring on it that held the ball against the encoder rollers.
Quote:

Plus you have zero need to instantly send all the encoder readings back to the computer, you can buffer, filter and average, then send.
You misunderstand. USB mouse standard uses a signed char(8 bits, 7 bits for magnitude, one for positive/negative) to send mouse position updates. That means you can move the cursor 127 counts per poll interval in each axis(sign indicates direction), and at 1khz that's 127k counts per second. To get more than that you'd have to write mouse drivers for the PC that allow a larger variable, and/or increase the polling rate beyond 1khz. 400CPI hits 127k counts per second at 8.06 m/s. You could buffer the overflow, but that would increase latency.
Edited by TranquilTempest - 8/9/16 at 12:59pm
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post #69 of 81
16-bit hid usb mouse is universally supported
post #70 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by wareya View Post

16-bit hid usb mouse is universally supported
I guess I need to read the spec more thoroughly.
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