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[Cooler Master] MasterLiquid Maker 92 Hybrid CPU Cooler - Page 13

post #121 of 130
Looks like the results in the techpowerup review have been updated. Bad mount apparently. Still not something I would ever recommend though.
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post #122 of 130
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcfoo View Post

Only you don't get that with this package / solution.

As predicted you need something much much bigger for WC to be more effective than what is possible with aircooled fins & heapipes already, without more money and without a really bigger footprint. Proof is in the pudding...so....

That's what I said- the concept is sound, the execution here was not good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z0eff View Post

Looks like the results in the techpowerup review have been updated. Bad mount apparently. Still not something I would ever recommend though.

So they are another "we test once and report it" website after all? All coolers/blocks need to be tested with multiple mounts for statistical accuracy and to also eliminate mount variability from user.
post #123 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z0eff View Post

Looks like the results in the techpowerup review have been updated. Bad mount apparently. Still not something I would ever recommend though.

 

Thank you for the heads-up. It's still far from a great product but at least with the re-bench it's not a total rubber fire. Objectively, it's performing like a Hyper 212 at a $75 premium for 'cool factor'. Except, y'know, it's not that cool in a literal or a metaphorical sense.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by geggeg View Post


That's what I said- the concept is sound, the execution here was not good.
So they are another "we test once and report it" website after all? All coolers/blocks need to be tested with multiple mounts for statistical accuracy and to also eliminate mount variability from user.
 
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post #124 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by geggeg View Post

Better heat transfer from IHS to heat dissipation area, higher heat dissipation area.

Fair enough, I guess that's possible in theory. But for those to be executed well I think the increased cost of the unit would outweigh the performance gains, and this thing is already very expensive in its current form.

Unless these CLC's get proper copper blocks and radiators, I doubt they'll ever be competitive with comparable air coolers. But then there's the cost issue again.
post #125 of 130
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilles3000 View Post

Fair enough, I guess that's possible in theory. But for those to be executed well I think the increased cost of the unit would outweigh the performance gains, and this thing is already very expensive in its current form.

Unless these CLC's get proper copper blocks and radiators, I doubt they'll ever be competitive with comparable air coolers. But then there's the cost issue again.

The Swiftech H220-X2 and Alphacool Eisbaer 240 come in at the $120-130 mark. The upcoming be quiet! AIO will too (hopefully). Things are getting there, but sub $100 will be hard to beat with the current price of copper.
post #126 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by geggeg View Post

The Swiftech H220-X2 and Alphacool Eisbaer 240 come in at the $120-130 mark. The upcoming be quiet! AIO will too (hopefully). Things are getting there, but sub $100 will be hard to beat with the current price of copper.

I know, but the CLC guys can't seem to properly price their products, the price of this MLM92 is just another example of that.

Fractal proved they could undercut the the alu CLC's with their full copper expandable AIO quite a while ago.
post #127 of 130
Wait, you think that if that unit was made out of copper & maintaining same capacity / fin area would have ANY tangible RL difference?

I would honestly doubt it...

As mentioned before in this thread, the thermal transfer coeficient of the material has VERY little to do with heat dissipation. The bottleneck is the fin-to-air convection.
If you have a plastic surface @ 100oC, it is cooling off in contact with air practically as fast as a 100oC metal surface of the same area in contact with air of the same temperature.

See this extreme example below:
Quote:
Example - Heat Transfer in a Heat Exchanger
A single plate exchanger with media A transfers heat to media B. The wall thickness is 0.1 mm and the material is polypropylene PP, aluminum or stainless steel.

Media A and B are air with a convection heat transfer coefficient of air = 50 W/m2K.

The overall heat transfer coefficient U per unit area can be expressed as:

U = 1 / (1 / hA + dxw / k + 1 / hB) (1b)

The overall heat transfer coefficient for heat exchanger in

polypropylene with thermal conductivity 0.1 W/mK:
U = 1 / (1 / (50 W/m2K) + (0.1 mm) (10-3 m/mm)/ (0.1 W/mK) + 1 / (50 W/m2K))

= 24.4 W /m2K

stainless steel with thermal conductivity 16 W/mK:
U = 1 / (1 / (50 W/m2K) + (0.1 mm) (10-3 m/mm)/ (16 W/mK) + 1 / (50 W/m2K))

= 25 W /m2K

aluminum with thermal conductivity 205 W/mK:
U = 1 / (1 / (50 W/m2K) + (0.1 mm) (10-3 m/mm)/ (205 W/mK) + 1 / (50 W/m2K))

= 25 W /m2K

Solve for the 401 W/mK of Copper and you will see that it is again the same, ~25 W/m2K.

All that matters really is surface area.
The trouble is getting a surface in contact with air uniformly hot to facilitate the exchage through convection using as much of the surface as possible. Ideally the whole area of it at the same rate. This is ofc where plastics like the polypropylene would fail. It would get super hot over the heat element, and keep it there unable to use the entirety of its surface area to dissipate heat to air.

So this unit is failing only on size: it is just too small folks. Even if it was made out of solid copper or aluminum (far better overall conductivity than a CLC with water in it), it would be limited by the very small radiator. Throwing more "mass" to the system (water, metal, whatever) makes no difference. Throwing more conductive materials in the mix makes intangible difference once you hit conductivity values of metals.

Its all about surface area, and since aluminum is the lightest & cheapest of the "conductive enough" metals, it is the most widely used regardless of application. I would take the biggest rad/fin area every-time, and so should you.
Edited by pcfoo - 8/26/16 at 7:18pm
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post #128 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by geggeg View Post

So they are another "we test once and report it" website after all? All coolers/blocks need to be tested with multiple mounts for statistical accuracy and to also eliminate mount variability from user.

To be fair to techpowerup it was apparently more than just a bad mount. I generally think of them as being a good source for reviews, at least a ton better than Guru3D...
Quote:
Originally Posted by techpowerup 
The two nuts that hold the cooler in place. Basically they tighten down and it feels like they bottom out aka that they are fully in place. However it seems the threads on the nuts were not 100% or had something in them eitherway via by hand or with screw driver didnt have enough elbow grease to tighten them all the way as it felt like they bottomed out. I mounted and remounted a couple times same thing. It wasn't until i got down and really looked I could see that the mounting arms on the CPU block were not fully touching the top of the screws aka there were threads visible. Using a pair of pliers after a quarter turn they broke free and i could then hand tighten them the rest of the way. Once fully tightened performance improved drastically. Most likely this is just a one off bad luck and due to time crunch trying to get everything ready to go i didn't notice. its also not the location either it was the nuts themselves. That location there just makes it more difficult as the tubing is pretty much right in the way making it more difficult to notice.

Edited by Z0eff - 8/26/16 at 9:24pm
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post #129 of 130
That's a weird device. I don't understand what it actually is achieving. Seems like a combination of complexity of water cooling with the limitations of air cooling.
post #130 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by geggeg View Post

That's what I said- the concept is sound, the execution here was not good.

The concept is not good because water won't show any advantage over heatpipes until there is more surface area available than you can readily mount directly to a CPU.

The equivalent of a single 140mm radiator is about the best you could mount this way and, at best, it would be tied with a top-end air cooler in cooling performance at similar noise level. However, it would weight three times as much, cost more, and be less reliable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcfoo View Post

Its all about surface area

Pretty much.
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Windows 7 Professional x64 SP1 BenQ BL3200PT Filco Majestouch Tenkeyless (MX Brown) Corsair RM1000x 
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Fractal Design Define R4 Logitech G402 Realtek ALC1150 + M-Audio AV40 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
X5670 @ 4.4/3.2GHz core/uncore, 1.36 vcore, 1.2... Gigabyte X58A-UD5 r2.0 w/FF3mod10 BIOS Sapphire Fury Nitro OC+ @ 1053/500, 1.225vGPU/1... 2x Samsung MV-3V4G3D/US @ 2000, 10-11-11-30-T1,... 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
1x Crucial BLT4G3D1608ET3LX0 @ 2000, 10-11-11-3... OCZ (Toshiba) Trion 150 120GB Hyundai Sapphire 120GB 3x Hitachi Deskstar 7k1000.C 1TB 
CoolingOSPowerCase
Noctua NH-D14 Windows 7 Pro x64 SP1 Antec TP-750 Fractal Design R5 
Audio
ASUS Xonar DS 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7-6800K @ 4.3/3.5GHz core/uncore, 1.36/1.2v ASRock X99 OC Formula (P3.10) GTX 780 (temporary) 4x4GiB Crucial DDR4-2400 @ 11-13-12-28-T2, 1.33v 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Intel 600p 256GB NVMe 2x HGST Travelstar 7k1000 1TB Corsair H55 (temporary) Windows Server 2016 Datacenter 
PowerCase
Seasonic SS-860XP2 Corsair Carbide Air 540 
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