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[woody] Win7 and 8.1 to get cumulative updates – you no longer control your Win7 or 8.1 machine - Page 13

post #121 of 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dienz View Post

Holy banana balls, people! Getcher tin foil hats and yrr pitch forks ready! The M$ GUB'MENT is coming fer you and wants access to yer compewter dayter!!

The hyperbole on OCN is real, ya'll. It's like most of you believe we actually live in the world of Jason Bourne or Enemy of the State. It seems like every time there is something related to Microsoft everyone gets bent around the axle and the talk just stinks of some kind of mass surveillance conspiracy. Who cares if Microsoft or Apple or Google or anyone else wants to control updates to your computer and collect legitimate statistics about your system.

What you all should be concerned with is the entirely unlicensed and unrestricted "internet of things" that is trying so very hard to become a household "thing." Smart fridge, smart watch, smart couch, smart toilet, smart coffee maker? Really? You people are whining about a computer operating system but make no mention of the things being pushed into the market that have a level of security my 7 year old could crack and which could be used to spill more PII faster than Niagara Falls spills water.

And honestly if you want to "hide" yourself then you need to disconnect and unplug entirely and go live in the Canadian Yukon or somewhere in northern Siberia.


You did go there. Well, let's see:

1. Trying to paint people who are informed and worried about these issues in a black and white manner only makes you look out of place. It specifically looks like you are posting directly from 2012.

2. As I've argued several times and have yet to have one single person address what I said, Microsoft does not need those statistics from every single Windows user in order to fix the top problems. And before I move on, let's make one thing clear, legitimate statistics is not a thing and surely it shouldn't include the list of software that you have installed on your computer and even fragments of your documents if you happen to have anything besides the basic telemetry setting turned on (which by the way you can't set during initial installation, another deceiving tactic by MS).

But as I was saying, it's economics 101 that fixing bugs takes time and human resources and thus money. None of that changed. And now more than ever Microsoft has even more people helping them out, with not only OEMs, partner companies, but also the possibilities enabled by tech forums and especially their Windows Insider program, where people voluntarily allow Windows 10 to give them expanded telemetry. Their own internal testing plus all of these entities I just mentioned give them an immense amount of feedback to identify the major issues. And those are the ones that get fixed just like they always have. Minority issues experienced by a small set of people will get pushed to the back of the list, like they always have, they are statistically irrelevant to Microsoft's bank account, like they have always been.

All, in all, having more telemetry changes nothing in that department. What it does change is their ability to monetize and profile their users. But that has got nothing to do with telemetry helping problem solving and is why many people don't like the hypocritical nature of these statements by MS when they pretend to need telemetry from everybody to make Windows better. They don't, that is 100% bullcrap.

3. Why are you separating IoT from Windows PCs? As if you are only allowed to be critic of the curernt state of IoT.

And not talking about the problems of IoT in this thread is called being on-topic. But you want to go there? Sure, let's empty that argument too:

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

IoT is a laughable concept once you get over the mild conveniences.


It will never be secure. The economics isn't there. Does anybody expect a cheap kettle to be supported by the manufacturer for long? Now people would have to worry about software updates for the kettle and all other IoT devices around the house? And anti-virus? LOL So much for the little added convenience backfiring in a huge way.

Unless planned obsolescence is the goal.

"Oops, we deliberately forgot the most basic of things, which is to put a mechanical button that physically cuts off power and signal to the wireless part of the kettle, so if it's infected already or one day you accidentally turn on the wireless part at a time when almost instant attacks are known and working, giving you an infected device almost as soon as you make the mistake, there is nothing you can do to try to turn off the wireless part since the virus will just ignore the soft switch command you give it.

Now, dear idiot customer, how would you like this new kettle? We are still ignoring the obvious and not giving you control in the form of a mechanical switch that actually does something regardless of software, but we've got new security software built in. It's going to work this time. It has no flaws, bugs or backdoors and it will be unhackable forever (or until next month). We promise!"


IoT doesn't work and it will never work. It's already very hard to try to keep a regular computer working in a secure manner, let alone a simplistic, unsupported device multiplied a dozen times around the house using wireless communications that are bound to be intercepted by their very nature.

IoT is a pathetic concept that only incentivizes laziness and gives more trouble than what it's worth.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

In an ideal world, awesome; in the actual world where there are hackers and where stuff that goes over the air is basically unsecurable and a breach is very hard to detect in time, terrible idea.

Personally, I don't think the Internet of things is either desirable or useful in the grand scheme of things; the downsides are just too many for the slight benefits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coachmark2 View Post

Neat technology, but I disagree that powering the devices has been the holdup in the IoT.

What the Internet of Things movement needs first is a new movement called the Security of Things.

This.

I don't think it's ultimately possible, but that is the right order to do things nonetheless, if anything to either prove it's viable or not.

Honestly, this talk about Internet of things, cloud, smartwatches, self-driving cars... we're getting to the point where people in the field are just going too far in many domains. Personal freedoms, privacy, security, are all being jeopardized with these ideas. And all for what ? A fridge that can tell me what I need to buy at the supermarket ? Ridiculous. There is a point of diminishing returns where people should look at technology and ask themselves if they want to essentially be replaced, controlled and spied by it in order to try to achieve an elusive perfection.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

Quote:
Vizio has won a significant chunk of the US television market, but new data on the company’s advertising tracking could put the kibosh on its holiday sales. If you own a Vizio television, chances are it’s monitoring what you watch — then selling that information to various advertisers and other firms. More troublingly, Vizio shares this information to advertisers in ways that allow them to target you on other platforms.
Quote:
Vizio recently updated its privacy policy to note that it “may combine this information with other information about devices associated with that IP address.” In other words, your “smart” TV is smart enough to hunt for other devices that connect to the local network and to sell that information. Vizio does not appear to encrypt IP addresses before selling them, which makes the information it provides to third parties very personal indeed. Cable and video rental companies are forbidden by law to monetize user-specific content viewing, but Vizio is claiming that its business isn’t bound by that restriction.

Source.



Rule number one when using a Smart TV: do not connect it to the Internet ever.




Edit: And it doesn't respect people's choices (like the LG TV sets a few months ago)... and it communicated without security... and it's been hacked.

Ars:
Quote:
Man-in-the-middle attack on Vizio TVs coughs up owners’ viewing habits
Hack underscores amateur goofs routinely made by Internet-of-Things developers.
Quote:
The cautionary tales just keep coming for Internet-connected TVs, thermostats, and other so-called "Internet-of-Things" devices. Today's lesson comes courtesy of a smart TV from Vizio that was subjected to a man-in-the-middle attack because it couldn't be bothered to validate the HTTPS certificates of servers it connected to.

Researchers from security firm Avast found that the Vizio model in their lab broadcasted fingerprints of users' viewing habits, even when owners hadn't consented to a privacy policy displayed during set up. What's more, the researchers uncovered a vulnerability in the smart TV that could act as a potential attack vector for a hacker attempting to access a user's home network.
Quote:
This data is sent regardless of whether you agree to the privacy policy and terms of service when first configuring the TV.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

One day people will have the police knocking on the door because they attempted to self-repair the toaster.

One day people might realise how dumb the idea of Internet of Things really is.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

The greater picture here - and it applies to all current and future Internet of things devices - is that these brands should be making clear that consumers are essentially getting a TV with the processing internals of a smartphone / tablet and a comparable mobile OS.

Since you only pay for the TV and not the continued usage of the Internet services (and OS updates / security updates) they provide, the consumer is essentially the product sold to third parties that helps pay the bills, thus using the on-line functionality necessarily comes with a loss of privacy attached.

But that isn't the only problem with Smart TVs and any other Internet of Things device - they are a terrible idea, just as it is a terrible idea to be on-line right now with a PC running Windows 95.

You have no idea about the needed security updates and no assurance for how long they will be provided. Having these devices connected to the Internet without having any sort of control over what the software is and what it is doing is a liability, especially for this kind of product that people tend to keep for 10 years or more. Will these brands keep supporting the hardware and software inside ? When will they push a message telling customers to unplug the TV from the Internet since the device is no longer supported and people are at risk ?
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sherlock View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

The tendency is for SoC all around. The Northbridge is gone and the Southbridge is next, even for desktop systems. Those chips use less than 10w, and with all the mini-ITX and micro-ATX tendency, it's the perfect excuse to get lower costs on those desktop platforms too. Don't 'expect them to build a separate solution for bigger motherboards.

Intel still uses a CPU and separate chipset for every system above an Atom, they are clearly building a separate solution for everything above fanless SOC level despite what you are claiming. The integrated sofia chip you listed is going to be on a entry level Atom SOC, the chance it is also on a desktop chipset is zero.

Given how much trouble Intel had with FIVR on Haswell Desktop chips and how they removed it for Skylake Desktop chips, the "integrate everything" movement is clearly slowing down not speeding up.


To make things clear, I hope you are right, I want you to be right. But I have my doubts. This thing will go in smartphones at first, but give it a higher clockspeed and possibly more GPU cores and you will start having them in Netbooks / Chromebooks and then Laptops.

With all this talk of the Internet of things (by the way, an obvious read on why it's a terrible idea: http://www.tomsguide.com/us/iot-attack-physical-impact,news-19182.html), they will soon start publicizing how cool it will be for you to be able to control your house from your desktop.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

This micro technology is both great and scary. The use cases have to be very well pondered. The excitements about the "Internet of Things" can be so ludicrous at times I wonder if good sense will prevail. I'm sure much of this excitement is not so naive either, much of it is probably money driven, at the prospect of making more income out of everything carrying this technology, without giving proper thought to possible consequences.

It's a fact you can't possibly reliably secure over the air network connected devices, even more so devices that offer a 24/7 attack window. Privacy and security have to be seriously taken into account, otherwise many usage cases have "disaster waiting to happen" written all over them.

I don't need a refrigerator that communicates with the food containers inside it and then send me a message when I'm at the supermarket. I'd rather organize myself and spend 1 minute looking inside the refrigerator in the morning and taking notes of what I need.

I don't need a smoke alarm that can be hacked over the air 24/7 and falsely call the fire brigade to my house.

Technology is great and I'm not disputing its usefulness is a lot of scenarios, but it surely seems a lot of new ideas seem forced and counter-productive. Some things, while using electronics, shouldn't be connected to any network.

Edited by tpi2007 - 8/17/16 at 12:45pm
 
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post #122 of 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dienz View Post

Also, if anyone hasn't read these, please do so!

One

Two

Garbage and garbage.

The first one is bias as heck, basically pro-Windows 10 and no real evidence, the best they did was interpret the EULA differently.

As for the second, while the amateur analyst did a bad job, he did do one thing right, and gathered a handful of microsoft IP's a typical windows 10 install tries to phone home with.
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post #123 of 308
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Originally Posted by Diffident View Post

I chuckled when I saw, "Based on your feedback". It's more like, "Too many people are blocking our Telemetry Upgrades so we are going to make it harder to avoid these updates."

+1

My thoughts exactly. It was inevitable, no?
 
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post #124 of 308
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Originally Posted by mrawesome421 View Post


+1

My thoughts exactly. It was inevitable, no?

 

I think they're referring to the feedback of the majority of their customers who probably wanted a much easier way to install updates. For example, my mom doesn't like seeing the list of available updates because it seems confusing or overwhelming. So, she will love this change!

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post #125 of 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoCables View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrawesome421 View Post

+1


My thoughts exactly. It was inevitable, no?

I think they're referring to the feedback of the majority of their customers who probably wanted a much easier way to install updates. For example, my mom doesn't like seeing the list of available updates because it seems confusing or overwhelming. So, she will love this change!
It's time we gave back to our moms!
    
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post #126 of 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToTheSun! View Post


It's time we gave back to our moms!

 

"Mom, do you realize that your feedback to Microsoft SUCKS?! Sigh. Thanks a lot!"

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post #127 of 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrawesome421 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diffident View Post

I chuckled when I saw, "Based on your feedback". It's more like, "Too many people are blocking our Telemetry Upgrades so we are going to make it harder to avoid these updates."

+1

My thoughts exactly. It was inevitable, no?

Same here.
     
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post #128 of 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoCables View Post

I think they're referring to the feedback of the majority of their customers who probably wanted a much easier way to install updates. For example, my mom doesn't like seeing the list of available updates because it seems confusing or overwhelming. So, she will love this change!

Why is your mother even looking at the list of updates if she doesn't know how to interpret it?
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post #129 of 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayleyne View Post

I hate that windows spies on me but... Honestly i work 12 hour days in a factory i can't really care any less than this and simply installed windows 10 to stop the nagging...
Oh, I did too, several months ago.

I upgraded from Win 7 to 10 at the same time I converted to Linux as my everyday OS. thumb.gif

Only things that Windows gets used for anymore are occasional games or benchmarks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoCables View Post

I think they're referring to the feedback of the majority of their customers who probably wanted a much easier way to install updates. For example, my mom doesn't like seeing the list of available updates because it seems confusing or overwhelming. So, she will love this change!
The vast majority of users won't mind any of these changes. And they're already getting spied on far worse by Google, so it doesn't matter to them anyway.

The only problem I have is that you can't opt out of this crap. And I strongly suspect that most everyone will be on 10 pretty soon whether they want it or not. MS will eventually backport most of Win 10, piece by piece, into the installations of anyone who stayed on 7 or 8.x and doesn't turn off Windows Update and block Microsoft's servers.

I'd planned for a long time to switch to Linux anyway, if I got a job that didn't require Windows software. Microsoft's BS just increased my resolve in that matter. After a few months of Linux, you never even miss Windows anymore. (Granted, I would feel differently if I gaming were my main reason for computing.)
Edited by jsc1973 - 8/17/16 at 8:38pm
     
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post #130 of 308
there used to be a time when users would diligently protect their PCs with an anti-virus or anti-malware program.

now they're ok with having malware installed from the get-go and continuously updated kookoo.gif
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Software News › [woody] Win7 and 8.1 to get cumulative updates – you no longer control your Win7 or 8.1 machine