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[Ars] Nvidia calls out Intel for cheating in Xeon Phi vs. GPU benchmarks - Page 7

post #61 of 101
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I'm just thinking of Huddy getting ready to discuss the next iteration of "The Fixer" when he gets this news and goes "Boys, lets see how this goes and we'll add a few more things to the fixer to fix"
post #62 of 101
The Fixer needs to fix AMD.
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post #63 of 101
I don't understand why everyone hates these two companies so much, especially when they provide so much of what so many of us claim we want.
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post #64 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoLDii3 View Post

inb4 civil war between nVidia and Intel fanboys redface.gif

I can already imagine the mental gymnastics involved when rationalizing why a nVidia GPU should be combined with AMD CPU biggrin.gif

Anyway on the topic - I'm pretty sure that if nVidia comes out to call out Intel over a specific benchmark they have triple checked their argument. This is not a claim to be done off-hand but needs something to back up their claim which is reproducible by third parties reliably (and these effected WILL check it most likely). This is not exactly a field where you can get away with just a catchy title to make an image stuck where no one looks up afterwards what was the end result of the dispute like in average "consumer" stuff.

None of the companies relevant (AMD, Intel nor nVidia) have squeaky clean background as far as being fair in benchmarks goes wink.gif
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post #65 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobiman View Post

Is there a way for a layman to measure/quantify deep learning abilties?

I would say "no" for your average layman. Those who are affected, however, are quite capable of doing that comparison. That said they are probably going to do that in a very specific configuration (both hard and software wise) which might not be the same as more formal "standard" benchmark. Some of the standard benchmarks can be used to guessimate to deep learning abilities probably, but it is a bit irrelevant at consumer level as the Intel card(s) under discussion are not relevant to home users.
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post #66 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniflex View Post

I can already imagine the mental gymnastics involved when rationalizing why a nVidia GPU should be combined with AMD CPU biggrin.gif

Anyway on the topic - I'm pretty sure that if nVidia comes out to call out Intel over a specific benchmark they have triple checked their argument. This is not a claim to be done off-hand but needs something to back up their claim which is reproducible by third parties reliably (and these effected WILL check it most likely). This is not exactly a field where you can get away with just a catchy title to make an image stuck where no one looks up afterwards what was the end result of the dispute like in average "consumer" stuff.

None of the companies relevant (AMD, Intel nor nVidia) have squeaky clean background as far as being fair in benchmarks goes wink.gif

Yeah... you're right... AMD once used a texture filtering tweak, back in 2004, which was a mixture of bilinear and trilinear filtering (though closer to trilinear filtering) dubbed "Brilinear" filtering by the tech media.

Ironically... this "brilinear" filtering is now an industry standard. Unless you specify "Quality" setting in your nVIDIA control panel, as it pertains to texture filtering quality, you're using "Brilinear". Same goes for AMD. Unless you switch to Texture Quality "High" then you're using "Brilinear".


Another optimization that AMD have used is FP16 Demotion. Basically... FP16 demotion means the use of a 32-bit render target instead of a 64-bit render target in HDR rendering. You cannot tell the difference in image quality. Good luck trying. But the difference is there in that the GPU is doing less work. Once again... nVIDIA have implemented this same feature in their drivers. The difference? You can disable it in AMD drivers (used to be Catalyst AI and now it is "Surface Format Optimization" while you cannot disable it on nVIDIA hardware.

Now if people find these tweaks/optimizations as being tantamount to cheating then what will they say about nVIDIAs entire Maxwell/Pascal architectures using Tile based rendering? Meaning that they only render portions of the scene which can be seen. Of course, like the other aforementioned tweaks, the nVIDIA GPUs are doing less work yet you cannot tell the difference IQ wise.
Edited by Mahigan - 8/18/16 at 10:10pm
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post #67 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahigan View Post

Yeah... you're right... AMD once used a texture filtering tweak, back in 2004, which was a mixture of bilinear and trilinear filtering (though closer to trilinear filtering) dubbed "Brilinear" filtering by the tech media.

Ironically... this "brilinear" filtering is now an industry standard. Unless you specify "Quality" setting in your nVIDIA control panel, as it pertains to texture filtering quality, you're using "Brilinear". Same goes for AMD. Unless you switch to Texture Quality "High" then you're using "Brilinear".


Another optimization that AMD have used is FP16 Demotion. Basically... FP16 demotion means the use of a 32-bit render target instead of a 64-bit render target in HDR rendering. You cannot tell the difference in image quality. Good luck trying. But the difference is there in that the GPU is doing less work. Once again... nVIDIA have implemented this same feature in their drivers. The difference? You can disable it in AMD drivers (used to be Catalyst AI and now it is "Surface Format Optimization" while you cannot disable it on nVIDIA hardware.

Now if people find these tweaks/optimizations as being tantamount to cheating then what will they say about nVIDIAs entire Maxwell/Pascal architectures using Tile based rendering? Meaning that they only render portions of the scene which can be seen. Of course, like the other aforementioned tweaks, the nVIDIA GPUs are doing less work yet you cannot tell the difference IQ wise.

To clarify a bit I actually did not try to take a swing at AMD in this regard or justify the practice somehow by saying that "everyone is doing it". The present case is not even about getting caught cheating in benchmarks although I dragged this in into my post ofc. In the present case Intel has posted some claims about their performance compared to "competition" (which was more or less aimed against nVidia in my understanding) which said "competition" pointed out were incorrect in their understanding.

As far as "cheating" in benchmarks goes. It is natural that companies are trying to do the best they can to "optimize" - however, as probably a fair number of consumers base their decisions on benchmarks (either directly or indirectly through review sites) the pressure on companies is probably quite large in regards of "cheating" which is usually either misrepresenting some setting that does actually something easier than it claims to do or in some cases trying to somehow cripple the opposition if having that possibility. Or the driver level hacks to get better scores in benchmarks, specifically, if running benchmark is detected while operating within "normal" parameters elsewhere (like, for example, the recent diesel engine scandal or the case of some Android GPU a little bit ago). There is quite a variety of "unfairness" going in the market in my understanding - for example - review samples seem to normally overclock a fair bit better than any of the cards/CPU's I have gotten off the shelf. I suspect cherry picking the review samples by companies wink.gif
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post #68 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by iTurn View Post

970 3.5GB advertised as 4GB

Well physically the card has 4GB. How it was distributed is like saying a phone has 64GB of storage but not saying that 10GB is saved to the OS. As long as it performed as you expect it to be, not really an issue at the end of the line.
The 970 sold extremely well regardless of the 3.5GB issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kana Chan View Post

Maxwell Async drivers?

It can do it via software. They never said full hardware support for async compute if I remember right.
It just doesn't lose performance as much as AMD gains. Still does DX12.
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post #69 of 101
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by iTurn View Post

970 3.5GB advertised as 4GB

Well physically the card has 4GB. How it was distributed is like saying a phone has 64GB of storage but not saying that 10GB is saved to the OS. As long as it performed as you expect it to be, not really an issue at the end of the line.
The 970 sold extremely well regardless of the 3.5GB issue.

Well, technically if all the products in their competition can run upto 4Gb without loosing significant performance compare to the gimped GTX 970, I think this issue is well justified to be tagged a "*nudge nudge* wink wink*" move by a well established player trying to take unethical advantage of its larger consumer base.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kana Chan View Post

Maxwell Async drivers?

It can do it via software. They never said full hardware support for async compute if I remember right.
It just doesn't lose performance as much as AMD gains. Still does DX12.

This is understood that Maxwell and Pascal can't do hardware level Async compute + Graphics which is one of the key features of next gen API that future games are going to be made upon. Too bad AMD already has the feature on their current products long before Nvidia even went to the drawing board with Pascal
post #70 of 101
'Let them fight'.


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