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[Techreport] Nvidia makes its GTX 1060 3GB card official - Page 27

post #261 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightAntilli View Post

Oh they do. But the damage nVidia does within the industry is a lot bigger than the damage AMD does, because nVidia knows it has the more powerful position in the market, and they can get away more easily with nonsense compared to AMD. Look at the 3.5GB of the GTX 970. Look how many people bought it anyway. And look how many people are defending the 3GB now. If the RX 470 had 3GB and the lower version of the GTX 1060 had 4GB, the story would be completely different, and we both know it. The AMD card would be bashed to purgatory and back, and the 4GB 1060 praised to the 7th heaven. And I would actually agree to skip the 3GB RX 470. But some people can't admit that their nice little brand actually releases things that are not so nice.
So in the end;
If AMD cards have a slight fault, the bottom line is, don't buy it.
If nVidia cards have a significant fault, the bottom line is, buy it anyway.

I can see where that sentiment comes from. But not every Nvidia owner thinks that way. Your statement goes a long way toward turning those people against you when they might have been neutral before that.

The memory issue with the 970 was the slimiest thing I've ever seen done since I started building my own PC, imho.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightAntilli View Post

I wouldn't be much of a proponent of treating customers fairly if I didn't. But people are not aware of the damage they cause by supporting products that are deceiving customers.
Oh come on... Tell me who gets attacked more than AMD. Look at the power consumption over PCI-E slot issue. AMD gets hammered for it while nVidia has cards with the same issue, and the DPC latency issue of Pascal was swept under the rug. Same as the 970 3.5GB. Even though there are people that complained about it, the majority said it doesn't matter. So much so, that they're now practically supporting a GTX 970 with 3GB (the 1060 3GB).

970 memory was not swept under the rug. And the lawsuit is going to cost them too.

One thing that I've noticed personally is that AMD does seem to have more issues published by the press. But page hits determine that. An negative Nvidia story typically doesn't generate the page hits the same way a negative AMD story does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightAntilli View Post

Yeah. I agree. Except that's not what's happening here. Because pointing out something negative about the 3GB card, even when mentioning to buy a 6GB instead, gets you labeled an AMD fanboy and that the card is fine. And obviously when that person retaliates, he starts getting comments that people wouldn't be as loyal if someone didn't keep attacking their brand of choice.

They feel the need to defend against negative comments. You were just saying how you feel AMD gets attacked unfairly. Do you suppose they see your attack the same way?

Then you upped the game by attacking the owners. Bias, liars etc. How is that type of rhetoric going to unite gamers?
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post #262 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by criminal View Post

Wow... I haven't had any interest in the GTX1060, so I have not paid much attention until today to the fact that the 1060 3GB has less specs than the 1060 6GB. Nvidia being shady again. At best this card should be a 1050Ti.

Agreed. We may be in for another lawsuit here. Using the same name causes confusion in the marketplace.
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post #263 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcg75 View Post

Agreed. We may be in for another lawsuit here. Using the same name causes confusion in the marketplace.

Lawsuits don't work like that.

A company has a wide variety how they can name their products. As long as the differentiate the details in the specs, not a single court on this planet can judge them. The 970-situation was because of false or insufficient communication on the side of Nvidia. Claims about what a product should be names have no basis. Otherwise the useless courts would never end.

What bothers me more are the numerous people offended by the 3GB number and 1SM less alone. It's one thing to have a personal problem with a GPU or the vendor, but to insult and harass buyers and naming them "idiots, foolish, losers" a.s.o. without even any review available is really douchy. With behavior like that, I do no longer wonder why we IT-guys are seen so often as "jerks". This thread has some fine examples of this kind.
post #264 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightAntilli View Post

They have no reason to change if everyone keeps buying those products and defending these business practices...

It's not like AMD is much better.

E.g look at the 6870 to 5870 naming.

Or the 285 naming vs 280 and 280x.

Both imply better performance than their predecessor, but that didn't happen.

Heck the speck changing is even present with the rx480.

Basically reviewers got cards for the 4gb card with the full speed ram, but basically all 4gb cards that are available now are the slower memory variant.

Same with the entire 3xx lineup. Some people because of the time gap, thought the 3xx series were new cards instead of rebrands. There was video of someone who bought a 390x and thought they got a fiji card. The 3xx series at the very least should have been lowered one tier. E.g 390x should have been 380x.

Both have been a bit shady when it comes to naming. But pretending AMD is innocent while Nvidia is the devil is a bit too much.
Edited by tajoh111 - 8/23/16 at 12:53pm
post #265 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardware Hoshi View Post

What bothers me more are the numerous people offended by the 3GB number and 1SM less alone. It's one thing to have a personal problem with a GPU or the vendor, but to insult and harass buyers and naming them "idiots, foolish, losers" a.s.o. without even any review available is really douchy. With behavior like that, I do no longer wonder why we IT-guys are seen so often as "jerks". This thread has some fine examples of this kind.

Cry more. Someone who doesn't research a product before buying it is a fool. Stop defending ignorance. I wouldn't go into buying any product blindly and I'd verse myself about it as much as possible, especially before plopping down $200.

No one has personal problems here with any company (I'm starting to question that for some unfortunately though). There are reviews and direct comparisons of the 3gb card vs the 6gb card and the frame rate difference is quite large between them. I posted a video just above as well.. but if you are so compelled here is a guru 3d one.

http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/msi_geforce_gtx_1060_gaming_x_3gb_review,12.html

Also.... IT guys are jerks? More like they get sick of people who do not help themselves at all and refuse to use their brain to solve a simple thing or more importantly learn for the future. The reality is, 99% of IT problems that general joe public calls in on is answered with a 10 second google search.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111 View Post

It's not like AMD is much better.

E.g look at the 6870 to 5870 naming.

Or the 285 naming vs 280 and 280x.

Both imply better performance than their predecessor, but that didn't happen.

Heck the speck changing is even present with the rx480.

Basically reviewers got cards for the 4gb card with the full speed ram, but basically all 4gb cards that are available now are the slower memory variant.

Same with the entire 3xx lineup. Some people because of the time gap, thought the 3xx series were new cards instead of rebrands. There was video of someone who bought a 390x and thought they got a fiji card. The 3xx series at the very least should have been lowered one tier. E.g 390x should have been 380x.

Both have been a bit shady when it comes to naming. But pretending AMD is innocent while Nvidia is the devil is a bit too much.

Apples to oranges buddy. None of those cards are literally the same name. If someone thought a 3 series was fiji that was entirely their own fault as it was never implied. I doubt it anyways, as anyone that even knows a gpu codename should absolutely know better. Also, the 390x is faster than the 290x, and the 390 is faster than the 290. Rebrand or not, they are faster.

And to make it clear, I fault AMD as well for the slower 4gb ram. Stupid move. However, you can easily just clock it back to the 8gb card specs in less than a second. The 3gb 1060 is cut down and the owner cannot do a thing about it. It will never match a 1060 6gb clock for clock.
Edited by SoloCamo - 8/23/16 at 1:47pm
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post #266 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olivon View Post

Nope, I look the efficiency, power consumption, ecosystem, price/performance etc...
Ugh. You really are clueless... Let me explain it to you... First, the definition of industry;

the aggregate of manufacturing or technically productive enterprises in a particular field, often named after its principal product

Get it? The gaming industry consists of mainly hardware vendors and developers/publishers. The gamer buys the products produced by these, and depending on what gets bought, the industry strives to achieve certain things. Obviously there's also government regulations for both the designers/manufacturers and their clients. So what progresses the gaming industry is something that either allows hardware to go forward, allows software developers to make better games or allows publishers to make more money. The user experience in a single moment has little to do with the gaming industry.

Now let's go down the list of things you mentioned in terms of graphics hardware;

Efficiency
I assume you mean energy efficiency, as in how much power is being used to achieve a certain performance, the lower the better. But since this would be related to power consumption (see below), I'll be talking about the efficiency of the architecture instead. This efficiency would mean that the hardware is used to its highest potential at all times if possible. This would allow smaller chips as well, which is effective for the hardware manufacturers themselves. Now, if the hardware is not being used to its fullest potential, there can be two reasons. Drivers of the hardware vendor are not adequate, or the software developers are not supporting the hardware enough.

If we take a look at AMD, they are aware that their hardware is not being used adequately, so their architectures are in all practical terms, inefficient, even though in terms of raw performance they don't do under much compared to the competition, if at all, their potential performance is way higher. They don't have the resources to do something about the inefficiency themselves, so they came with Mantle as a push for the industry, where their hardware can be used. This is progress for the industry, since their hardware is capable of great things that have not been done yet. That's why their hardware has leeway for future support and their performance improves over time. The inefficiency is in the hands of the software developers now.

nVidia on the other hand, they take a more here and now approach. They make the hardware for the here and now, and their hardware is pretty much as efficient as it can be from the start. In addition to that, they add proprietary software to complement their hardware. The proprietary software is made to support a new feature that every software developer would need to license if they want to use it, but is technically able to run on architectures of other hardware vendors. This allows them to dictate to a large extent how fast certain graphical effects are implemented in the industry. Additionally, their software and architectural updates go hand in hand, which means their hardware have a short cycle for their users, with the benefit of it not being underutilized during its main lifetime.

In the end, both hardware vendors already are doing something to improve their architectural efficiency. What AMD is doing is better for gamers in the long term, since their cards have a longer life. Additionally a range of developers can develop on a range of architectures, rather than go with just the nVidia way, which is actually a small group of software developers designing on a specific architecture. There is progress for the industry from both on this side though, but nVidia's way is the slower way, often at the cost of the gamer.

Power consumption
Obviously with electricity prices going up among other things, everyone wants the most performance for the least amount of power, obviously. That will therefore always be a drive for the hardware companies. Being good at this is great for the end user and the reputation of the manufacturer. But power consumption on its own is not something that forwards the gaming industry as such. Architectural efficiency can directly influence games and how they are developed, and how much graphical power can be available for them. Power consumption is a cost-saving 'feature' for the clients of the hardware vendors. Obviously both nVidia and AMD have a focus on this, since they are both trying to improve their energy efficiency constantly as previously mentioned. But using more power will not negatively impact how games are created nor how hardware is created. It only affects how the hardware vendor itself is viewed and nothing else. No 'industry' to speak of here...

ecosystem
Funny, how the first three of your things only refer to power consumption. Guess that's all you have don't you? Let me tell you something. Using your graphics card for 4 years is a lot more beneficial to the biological ecosystem than buying a new graphics card every two years, even if that previous card has a higher power consumption. And the only way this will affect the gaming industry is if governments put regulations on the environment, or if we no longer have materials to create graphics card. No other things affect the gaming industry in this regard.
But forget it. I'll pretend that you meant a business ecosystem instead. Oh, in that case I have no idea what you're referring to. Basically companies need to keep up with each other. nVidia is behind on hardware versatility but AMD is behind on energy efficiency. Even though that lower energy efficiency is what gives them that versatility in their hardware, but whatever. AMD is doing everything it can to keep the ecosystem as balanced as possible in both the GPU as CPU space. But hey, guess what, people like you are standing in their way of reaching that balanced business ecosystem because you're too busy kissing nVidia's behind. So don't complain about looking at the 'ecosystem'. We both know that's you just grasping at things to support your agenda.
nVidia definitely is not doing much to improve the business ecosystem. In fact, they've been destroying it for quite a while with their TWIMTBP program and GameWorks, and all their proprietary nonsense.

So really, if you care about the ecosystem, whether biological or business, AMD is the way to go.

price/performance
Oh? So very funny you should mention that. Tell me. Who sets the best price/performance ratio most of the time? All I have to say is this; Founders Edition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olivon View Post

Do you really think PC Gaming industry is happy to see that nVidia has not opponent with GP102 and GP104 ? Is it a a normal situation ?
You're constantly referring to 'gamers' when you say the gaming industry. They are not the same thing. And in any case, it's the choice of gamers whether they want to overpay for nVidia's cards. And weren't you just mentioning that you look at price/performance? I guess nVidia's price/performance is not ok for these right? And that's obviously AMD's fault, right? Because you refusing to invest in AMD cards is supposed to give AMD the tools to compete with nVidia... Right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olivon View Post

Since AMD grab the consolisis, they pulled down the PC Gaming and, de facto, it's nVidia who took over. Is it normal situtation² ?
What nonsense are you spouting now? How did AMD pull down PC gaming after having the console space? AMD cards are closer to full FL12_1 support than nVidia cards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olivon View Post

Man, nVidia is certainly not a white knight but AMD showed some serious flaws that impacted PC gaming a lot by being uncompetitive most of the time and that's pure and simple facts.
Uncompetitive? If gamers were smart enough to know what they invest in they would've gone with the R9 390 instead of the GTX 970, but no. They had to be hard-headed and buy a 3.5GB card even after they knew about the fiasco. There was no area in the graphics card business where AMD was uncompetitive after GCN. Only recently after the GTX 1080 there is no AMD competition there on the highest end yet. But the fact that you imply to want AMD to only to bring nVidia prices down so you can buy nVidia shows your ignorance regarding how destructive that thinking is. Why don't you, I don't know, buy AMD instead for once, rather than jumping on the power consumption excuse every single time, to support a more balanced market?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olivon View Post

The 2.8X power efficiency lie is way worse than this 1060 3GB bricolage but i didn't see you screaming about it, double standard FTW.
That does not matter for the gaming industry, as already explained before. It matters to gamers maybe, but does not affect the industry. It only affects the company producing the product. Besides, if you look at the power consumption of an R9 390 and an RX 480 at the same performance, you will see that there was a great improvement there. So they are improving. If they were only consuming more power I would understand you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcg75 View Post

I can see where that sentiment comes from. But not every Nvidia owner thinks that way. Your statement goes a long way toward turning those people against you when they might have been neutral before that.
I have nothing against nVidia owners that are neutral. If they buy a GTX 1080, I believe they're wasting their money, but hey, go ahead and buy it, because there's no competition there. Companies overprice things from time to time, and so did AMD with the FX-9000 series for example. But... If you buy a GTX 970 or a GTX 1060 3GB however, I cannot say you thought about your purchase and its impact. And if you don't buy it, but are constantly defending it online, well, to say it in a least harsh manner, you can crawl back the way you came from.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcg75 View Post

The memory issue with the 970 was the slimiest thing I've ever seen done since I started building my own PC, imho.
970 memory was not swept under the rug. And the lawsuit is going to cost them too.
Yeah, it is going to cost them, but the market share they gained is still a big plus for them, and then there are the ones that refuse to get their $30 back.... And the ones outside the US that simply have to suck it up because the lawsuit only applies to the US.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcg75 View Post

One thing that I've noticed personally is that AMD does seem to have more issues published by the press. But page hits determine that. An negative Nvidia story typically doesn't generate the page hits the same way a negative AMD story does.
And why would that be? smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcg75 View Post

They feel the need to defend against negative comments. You were just saying how you feel AMD gets attacked unfairly. Do you suppose they see your attack the same way?
If I say that 3GB limits the card, it is not an unfair attack. If they wish to see it that way, well, no offense but they're wrong. Especially if I recommend a GTX 1060 6GB instead... How would that come over as an attack? Do these people ever recommend an alternative AMD card? No. It's always an nVidia card.

Let me show you something. This was my first comment in this thread;
Buying a 3GB card today is not the smartest move.

After various replies, I said;
No one here was saying it RAM was the most important thing. We were saying that the 3GB will limit the GPU and therefore it's better to go with an AMD variant or the 1060 6GB.

Then this was the answer I got;
Why would you go for a weaker card just because it offer more VRAM? Isn't that just pure fanboyism?

What warrants calling what I said fanboyism if I also included the 1060 6GB?

Are people wrong when they say the RX 480 consumes more power than a GTX 1060? No they're not.
Are people wrong when they say it consumes so much power as to completely disregard the card? Yes they are, especially if it can work fine on a quality $450W PSU...
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcg75 View Post

Then you upped the game by attacking the owners. Bias, liars etc. How is that type of rhetoric going to unite gamers?
There comes a point where the discussion with certain people doesn't matter anymore. If using reason doesn't work, what else is there? I don't think I was unclear which group I was referring to. Plus, the Matrix reference was kind of a joke, albeit one that reflects reality of fanboyism quite a bit...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardware Hoshi View Post

but to insult and harass buyers and naming them "idiots, foolish, losers" a.s.o. without even any review available is really douchy. With behavior like that, I do no longer wonder why we IT-guys are seen so often as "jerks". This thread has some fine examples of this kind.
Are you kidding me? You were calling multiple people names and accusing them of being fanboys in here. You really have the nerve to accuse others of this behavior? Pfff.....
Edited by NightAntilli - 8/23/16 at 1:29pm
post #267 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightAntilli View Post

Stuff
To be fair, many people bought 970's before Nvidia was outed for their fake spec sheet. I know I did, and lucky NCIX gave me store credit, but I also know many couldn't return to their retailers, and they just had to accept that they got, got.
post #268 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloCamo View Post

Cry more. Someone who doesn't research a product before buying it is a fool. Stop defending ignorance. I wouldn't go into buying any product blindly and I'd verse myself about it as much as possible, especially before plopping down $200.

No one has personal problems here with any company (I'm starting to question that for some unfortunately though). There are reviews and direct comparisons of the 3gb card vs the 6gb card and the frame rate difference is quite large between them. I posted a video just above as well.. but if you are so compelled here is a guru 3d one.

http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/msi_geforce_gtx_1060_gaming_x_3gb_review,12.html

Also.... IT guys are jerks? More like they get sick of people who do not help themselves at all and refuse to use their brain to solve a simple thing or more importantly learn for the future. The reality is, 99% of IT problems that general joe public calls in on is answered with a 10 second google search.
Apples to oranges buddy. None of those cards are literally the same name. If someone thought a 3 series was fiji that was entirely their own fault as it was never implied. I doubt it anyways, as anyone that even knows a gpu codename should absolutely know better. Also, the 390x is faster than the 290x, and the 390 is faster than the 390. Rebrand or not, they are faster.

And to make it clear, I fault AMD as well for the slower 4gb ram. Stupid move. However, you can easily just clock it back to the 8gb card specs in less than a second. The 3gb 1060 is cut down and the owner cannot do a thing about it. It will never match a 1060 6gb clock for clock.

Both 6870 and r9 285 imply higher performance than the their predecessor which we know isnt the case. Having the higher number increases their marketing appeal and expected performance. This is basically the same as the gtx 1060 3gb. The difference is because of only the 1 month time gap between the card, no one is going to double dip or do the sidegrade upgrade.

People in the market for the 1060 are saving 20 percent for a 7 percent drop in performance. A clear value proposition. At the time of the 285 and 6870 released, the 5870 and particularly 280 and 280x had better pricing. What this means there was a good chance a buyer could skip over those cards even those they were better values or faster cards because of the branding.

With the 1060 3gb, your getting a slightly slower card for cheaper. And because of no time gap, your not going to side grade or passover the better value card from the same series. The gtx 1060 represents among the best price to performance this generation and that what should matter most in the end.
post #269 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111 View Post

Both 6870 and r9 285 imply higher performance than the their predecessor which we know isnt the case. Having the higher number increases their marketing appeal and expected performance. This is basically the same as the gtx 1060 3gb. The difference is because of only the 1 month time gap between the card, no one is going to double dip or do the sidegrade upgrade.

People in the market for the 1060 are saving 20 percent for a 7 percent drop in performance. A clear value proposition. At the time of the 285 and 6870 released, the 5870 and particularly 280 and 280x had better pricing. What this means there was a good chance a buyer could skip over those cards even those they were better values or faster cards because of the branding.

With the 1060 3gb, your getting a slightly slower card for cheaper. And because of no time gap, your not going to side grade or passover the better value card from the same series. The gtx 1060 represents among the best price to performance this generation and that what should matter most in the end.

So... what about the most obvious part that you are overlooking for some odd reason. It's been given the same exact model number. Newer gen cards in a numbers hierarchy being slower or equal isn't exactly new... The geforce 4 ti4200 was a lot faster than the geforce 5200, and even the 5600 in many cases. And there are other cases as well...

The issue here is they are literally calling it the same in the same family of gpus and there is a clear performance difference. The buyer isn't going to see" 93% of the gtx1060 6gb performance for 20% less!" on the box. Most people would questions specs a lot more on different model numbers, not when the card is labeled the same minus vram amount.

Whatever happened to calling something like a 1060 LE, SE, GT, etc.? At least the naming advised you that they are not the exact same. Like I said, either should called this a 1050ti or called the 6gb 1060 the 1060ti.
Edited by SoloCamo - 8/23/16 at 2:34pm
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post #270 of 332
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloCamo View Post

So... what about the most obvious part that you are overlooking for some odd reason. It's been given the same exact model number. Newer gen cards in a numbers hierarchy being slower or equal isn't exactly new... The geforce 4 ti4200 was a lot faster than the geforce 5200, and even the 5600 in many cases. And there are other cases as well...

The issue here is they are literally calling it the same in the same family of gpus and there is a clear performance difference. The buyer isn't going to see" 93% of the gtx1060 6gb performance for 20% less!" on the box. Most people would questions specs a lot more on different model numbers, not when the card is labeled the same minus vram amount.

Whatever happened to calling something like a 1060 LE, SE, GT, etc.? At least the naming advised you that they are not the exact same. Like I said, either should called this a 1050ti or called the 6gb 1060 the 1060ti.

950 Pro 256 GB is slower than 950 Pro 512 GB, exact same model number. Identical model number doesn't guarantee identical performance if the full product name is different(as is in case of 1060 3 vs 6GB) I don't see Samsung calling it 950 Pro SE/LE and I don't see it getting sued either. wink.gif
Edited by sherlock - 8/23/16 at 3:43pm
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(7 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7-6700K  ASUS Maximus VIII Ranger EVGA 1080 FTW TridentZ DDR4-3000 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Samsung SM951 128GB Samsung 840 Pro 256 GB Muskin Reactor 1TB Seagate Baracuda 2TB ST2000DM001 HDD 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Seagate Baracuda 2TB ST2000DM001 HDD Corsair H110i GT Windows 10 Pro  Acer XB321HK 32" 4K G-sync 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Corsair K70 Rapid Fire EVGA SuperNova 650 P2 NZXT H440 Black Logitech G900  
Mouse PadOther
Razer Vespula CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD - PFC Sinewave UPS Syst... 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7-7700HQ 2.8Ghz(3.8Ghz Turbo) Dell XPS 15-9560 Nvidia GTX 1050 8GB DDR4-2400 
Hard DriveOSMonitor
256GB PCIE SSD Windows 10 Pro 15.6" 1080p 
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Hardware News › [Techreport] Nvidia makes its GTX 1060 3GB card official