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[TweakTown]DirectX 12 mGPU and Vulkan Support on the way for Cryengine - Page 6

post #51 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post

doh.gif

The question is DX12 v.s. Vulkan, I am not sure how openGL v.s. Vulkan is relevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

That is just a whole pile of bulls.

I was not talking about OpenGL.

Yet you give me OpenGL benchmarks.

This is irrelevant as much as your extra sized over bold letters as much as your understanding in reading.

DX12 vs Vulkan.
This is my reference, and I was very clear about it.

People talk about vulkan as it is going to replace DX11 or DX12, as it is the new "master API".
Since there has absolutely nothing to prove that, and talking about OpenGL like it matters, since OpenGL has been horribly under performing for years, all the time you spending writing this bulls, is just bulls.

I agree it was not DX12 vs Vulkan. But nothing was bull in there. You are just unable to see the whole BIG picture.
nVidia's architecture is not very good in parallel processing and comparison to DX11, nVidia's DX12 gain is minimal or even worse in some case for current architecture, so exactly does nVidia GPUs react in Vulkan vs OpenGL. Since nVidia has the best optimization for (minus Compute functions) DX11 and OpenGL. What I am saying is for Nvidia users, Vulkan vs DX12 gains are almost similar. But AMD's parallel architecture is benefiting more with Vulkan that with DX12.

Because my tests on Forza Motorsport 6 (DX12) at 720p all settings at dynamic and 60 fps limit shows extremely bad performance with my i3 at 800 MHz, game can't even render a single fully completed textured frame, continuous micro stuttering. average GPU usage is 0-9%. With 1700 MHz CPU, it is entry level playable ~ 30-45 fps but the GPU usage is still not more than 34%. At default CPU clocks, GPU utilization is ~65% and fps is constant 60 fps, since the game is locked to 60 fps there is a chance GPU is not a bottleneck at this clock speed though.

After witnessing Mantle in BF4 in 2014 with 2.5 GHz i7 CPU (280X @ 4.0 TFLOPS and GPU usage was at 70%+ with 60+ fps) and Doom Vulkan with i3 at 800 MHz (7850 @ 2 TFLOPS and ~85% GPU utilization with 50+ fps ), I am 100% confident that DX12 has been nowhere near the Vulkan in terms of Drawcalls processing at least till now.

Look, I am not saying that DX12 is bad, may be DX12 is easy to code in than Mantle, but I have not seen DX12 doing any better than Vulkan, but I have seen Vulkan doing much better than DX12 in exact terms what developers have been wanting, "an API that provides least CPU overhead". It is win win for both Nvidia and AMD. May be I am being too paranoid for now as we don't know hat happens with future games, but anyway.
Did you see the minimum required OS for upcoming GOW 4, it is Win10 Anniversary update", also Quantum Break was supposed to be Win10 and DX12 exclusive, but I heard it is coming to DX11 and steam now. Why is that ?



P.S. I would love to know the 980's performance with emulated dual core @ 800 MHz in Doom Vulkan 720p all graphics at lowest. Please share if possible.
Edited by sumitlian - 8/21/16 at 3:34am
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post #52 of 112
Quote:

DSOGaming: Since you’ve worked on both DirectX and OpenGL, what’s your opinion on both of these APIs? And do you consider Vulkan to be better than DirectX 12?

 

Axel: Overall we had very little issues developing DOOM with OpenGL. DirectX 11 might have an advantage when it comes to optimizations on driver side, as more effort was put into that over the years by the IVHs compared to OpenGL. Also admittedly, there is a broader range of tools that work with DirectX than OpenGL at this point in time. On the other hand, OpenGL has a bigger feature set through extensions and it is less restrictive in terms of certain GPU operations.

 

DirectX 12 and Vulkan are conceptually very similar and both clearly inherited a lot from AMD’s Mantle API efforts. The low level nature of those APIs moves a lot of the optimization responsibility from the driver to the application developer, so we don’t expect big differences in speed between the two APIs in the future. On the tools side there is very good Vulkan support in RenderDoc now, which covers most of our debugging needs. We choose Vulkan, because it allows us to support Windows 7 and 8, which still have significant market share and would be excluded with DirectX 12. On top of that Vulkan has an extension mechanism that allows us to work very closely with AMD, NVIDIA and Intel to do very specific optimizations for each hardware.

 

Source

 

There's a developer's perspective. Reasons for choosing Vulkan: 1) OS Compatibility 2) Vendor-specific extensions

post #53 of 112
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TFL Replica View Post

DSOGaming: Since you’ve worked on both DirectX and OpenGL, what’s your opinion on both of these APIs? And do you consider Vulkan to be better than DirectX 12?

Axel: Overall we had very little issues developing DOOM with OpenGL. DirectX 11 might have an advantage when it comes to optimizations on driver side, as more effort was put into that over the years by the IVHs compared to OpenGL. Also admittedly, there is a broader range of tools that work with DirectX than OpenGL at this point in time. On the other hand, OpenGL has a bigger feature set through extensions and it is less restrictive in terms of certain GPU operations.

DirectX 12 and Vulkan are conceptually very similar and both clearly inherited a lot from AMD’s Mantle API efforts. The low level nature of those APIs moves a lot of the optimization responsibility from the driver to the application developer, so we don’t expect big differences in speed between the two APIs in the future. On the tools side there is very good Vulkan support in RenderDoc now, which covers most of our debugging needs. We choose Vulkan, because it allows us to support Windows 7 and 8, which still have significant market share and would be excluded with DirectX 12. On top of that Vulkan has an extension mechanism that allows us to work very closely with AMD, NVIDIA and Intel to do very specific optimizations for each hardware.

Source

There's a developer's perspective. Reasons for choosing Vulkan: 1) OS Compatibility 2) Vendor-specific extensions

Agreed.

Similar is from Khronos.


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post #54 of 112
And this is from Dan Ginsberg (Valve).







Edited by sumitlian - 8/21/16 at 3:25am
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post #55 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by looniam View Post

sure it slaps around OpenGL but now to extrapolate dx12 performance; possibly add 10%-20% increase over dx11 and it looks vulkan could be just 60% of dx12 performance. hell even account for the hit nvidia takes with async compute and it's still behind by a far percentage.

(high pitched) Whaaaaat ?
You fantasize so much LMAO.

M$'s XbOne has an AMD GCN GPU.
Closed source Mantle was designed by AMD for their GCN GPUs for PC OS platforms. Yes the similar GCN that is found in XBOne.
DX12 is a derivative of lower level API found in XBOne. you still didn't get it ?.
Any lower level API and its derivatives for a single architecture will be similar in terms of functionality. Only Libraries, functions, intrinsic naming and coding style to utilize those functions might be different, but at lower level they are basically similar.
Indirectly, DX12 itself is nothing more than a derivative of Mantle, but DX12 contains D3D exclusive features/higher level features as well that are not found on Mantle.
AMD donated a low level API named as Vulkan to Khronos (which is a derivative of Mantle).

Since Vulkan is Open Source, nVidia & AMD can add architecture friendly/specific features into it. And this is why so many experienced AAA developer are preferring Vulkan more than DX12 because it is platform independent.
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post #56 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by sumitlian View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by looniam View Post

sure it slaps around OpenGL but now to extrapolate dx12 performance; possibly add 10%-20% increase over dx11 and it looks vulkan could be just 60% of dx12 performance. hell even account for the hit nvidia takes with async compute and it's still behind by a far percentage.

(high pitched) Whaaaaat ?
You fantasize so much LMAO.

M$'s XbOne has an AMD GCN GPU.
Closed source Mantle was designed by AMD for their GCN GPUs for PC OS platforms. Yes the similar GCN that is found in XBOne.
DX12 is a derivative of lower level API found in XBOne. you still didn't get it ?.
Any lower level API and its derivatives for a single architecture will be similar in terms of functionality. Only Libraries, functions, intrinsic naming and coding style to utilize those functions might be different, but at lower level they are basically similar.
Indirectly, DX12 itself is nothing more than a derivative of Mantle, but DX12 contains D3D exclusive features/higher level features as well that are not found on Mantle.
AMD donated a low level API named as Vulkan to Khronos (which is a derivative of Mantle).

Since Vulkan is Open Source, nVidia & AMD can add architecture friendly/specific features into it. And this is why so many experienced AAA developer are preferring Vulkan more than DX12 because it is platform independent.

The question isn't whether he gets it but why he refuses to get it.

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post #57 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by sumitlian View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by looniam View Post

sure it slaps around OpenGL but now to extrapolate dx12 performance; possibly add 10%-20% increase over dx11 and it looks vulkan could be just 60% of dx12 performance. hell even account for the hit nvidia takes with async compute and it's still behind by a far percentage.

(high pitched) Whaaaaat ?
You fantasize so much LMAO.

M$'s XbOne has an AMD GCN GPU.
Closed source Mantle was designed by AMD for their GCN GPUs for PC OS platforms. Yes the similar GCN that is found in XBOne.
DX12 is a derivative of lower level API found in XBOne. you still didn't get it ?.
Any lower level API and its derivatives for a single architecture will be similar in terms of functionality. Only Libraries, functions, intrinsic naming and coding style to utilize those functions might be different, but at lower level they are basically similar.
Indirectly, DX12 itself is nothing more than a derivative of Mantle, but DX12 contains D3D exclusive features/higher level features as well that are not found on Mantle.
AMD donated a low level API named as Vulkan to Khronos (which is a derivative of Mantle).

Since Vulkan is Open Source, nVidia & AMD can add architecture friendly/specific features into it. And this is why so many experienced AAA developer are preferring Vulkan more than DX12 because it is platform independent.
read below:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liranan View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sumitlian View Post

The question isn't whether he gets it but why he refuses to get it.

moi don't get? how about those not realizing that constantly discussing mantle is about the same as talking about the eggs one had for breakfast when preparing a chicken for dinner.
how relevant would it be to talk about DX7 for a DX11 game?

NONE.

get it?

mind you this discussion stated with:
Quote:
Originally Posted by looniam View Post

as much as i want to see vulkan succeed it still has a bit to go before beating dx11, no?

which was met with most all "mantle speak" and apathy. get over it people, mantle had its day and though it laid the foundation for vulkan, other vendors (nvidia, intel and even SiS)have put their hands in the pot and it has evolved as much as an egg evolved into a chicken. (on a side note: dx12 has had MS's heavy hand involved.)

mantle, vulkan and dx12 are all low level APIs, but to equate their performance as being similar is an error.

revisiting history about mantle won't change that. now do you get it?
Edited by looniam - 8/21/16 at 8:25am
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post #58 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by looniam View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sumitlian View Post
  Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by looniam View Post

sure it slaps around OpenGL but now to extrapolate dx12 performance; possibly add 10%-20% increase over dx11 and it looks vulkan could be just 60% of dx12 performance. hell even account for the hit nvidia takes with async compute and it's still behind by a far percentage.

(high pitched) Whaaaaat ?
You fantasize so much LMAO.

M$'s XbOne has an AMD GCN GPU.
Closed source Mantle was designed by AMD for their GCN GPUs for PC OS platforms. Yes the similar GCN that is found in XBOne.
DX12 is a derivative of lower level API found in XBOne. you still didn't get it ?.
Any lower level API and its derivatives for a single architecture will be similar in terms of functionality. Only Libraries, functions, intrinsic naming and coding style to utilize those functions might be different, but at lower level they are basically similar.
Indirectly, DX12 itself is nothing more than a derivative of Mantle, but DX12 contains D3D exclusive features/higher level features as well that are not found on Mantle.
AMD donated a low level API named as Vulkan to Khronos (which is a derivative of Mantle).

Since Vulkan is Open Source, nVidia & AMD can add architecture friendly/specific features into it. And this is why so many experienced AAA developer are preferring Vulkan more than DX12 because it is platform independent.
read below:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liranan View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sumitlian View Post
 
The question isn't whether he gets it but why he refuses to get it.

moi don't get? how about those not realizing that constantly discussing mantle is about the same as talking about the eggs one had for breakfast when preparing a chicken for dinner.
how relevant would it be to talk about DX7 for a DX11 game?

NONE.

get it?

mind you this discussion stated with:
Quote:
Originally Posted by looniam View Post

as much as i want to see vulkan succeed it still has a bit to go before beating dx11, no?

which was met with most all "mantle speak" and apathy. get over it people, mantle had its day and though it laid the foundation for vulkan, other vendors (nvidia, intel and even SiS)have put their hands in the pot and it has evolved as much as an egg evolved into a chicken. (on a side note: dx12 has had MS's heavy hand involved.)

mantle, vulkan and dx12 are all low level APIs, but to equate their performance as being similar is an error.

revisiting history about mantle won't change that. now do you get it?

You have lowered us down to your level and beaten us to pulp with experience.

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post #59 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liranan View Post

You have lowered us down to your level and beaten us to pulp with experience.

so i should not use, "you're making an ignorant assumption" stick?
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post #60 of 112
DX11/OGL have to talk to the driver first, which then checks the code to pass it in hardware, this creates huge overhead.
Think of it like trying to pass directions to a car driver but talking to his co-driver on the phone, there will be mistakes, repeat of words etc.

Both Vulkan/DX12 allow a programmer to choose how to deal with the hardware available, from crashing to fine-tuned.
Vulkan allows shader code at assembly-level to run(shader intrinsics) which is the fastest you can get.(No idea if dx12 has support yet)

Therefore Vulkan/DX12 are limited by code quality and hardware.Same quality of code means same performance on both APIs.

A good read here from actual game developers
Edited by Marios145 - 8/21/16 at 9:12am
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