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[TH] PCI Express 4.0 Brings 16 GT/s And At Least 300 Watts At The Slot - Page 12

post #111 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster_is_better View Post

They don't develop these specs lightly. Backwards compatibility is a high priority so I doubt there would be an issue. PCI Express has been ahead of the game for transfer speed for a long time, maybe always which is good, that's one less bottleneck possible. The actual interesting bit of the new spec is the increased power potential at slot.

Some mobo's already have auxiliary power ports on them to help feed hungry GPU's. Mine has a spot to plug in a molex to help give more/stable power to GPU's. Probably not really needed unless benching under extreme conditions though.

A PCIe 4.0 device is not backward compatible though, unlike a PCIe 3.0 device which would work in a 2.0 slot.
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post #112 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by saintruski View Post

I don't much like the idea of pcie4. I feel like GPUs are going through needlessly adopt it like 3.0 (except it was fully compatible with 2.0 so it wasn't a problem) and everyone with any platform that doesn't have a 4.0 slot is going to me screwed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuhfhrh View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster_is_better View Post

They don't develop these specs lightly. Backwards compatibility is a high priority so I doubt there would be an issue. PCI Express has been ahead of the game for transfer speed for a long time, maybe always which is good, that's one less bottleneck possible. The actual interesting bit of the new spec is the increased power potential at slot.

Some mobo's already have auxiliary power ports on them to help feed hungry GPU's. Mine has a spot to plug in a molex to help give more/stable power to GPU's. Probably not really needed unless benching under extreme conditions though.

A PCIe 4.0 device is not backward compatible though, unlike a PCIe 3.0 device which would work in a 2.0 slot.

Except for the part where it is backwards compatible, just like all versions of PCI-e...
Edited by KyadCK - 8/23/16 at 4:43pm
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post #113 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster_is_better View Post

Some mobo's already have auxiliary power ports on them to help feed hungry GPU's. Mine has a spot to plug in a molex to help give more/stable power to GPU's. Probably not really needed unless benching under extreme conditions though.

Quite a few have these additional inputs and some have multiple additional inputs with some requiring at least one of them to be used if there are multiple gpu's present.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuhfhrh View Post

A PCIe 4.0 device is not backward compatible though, unlike a PCIe 3.0 device which would work in a 2.0 slot.

That's a rather bold statement considering we don't have any pci-e 4.0 devices, or even a pci-e 4.0 standard to test it with.
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post #114 of 151

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjdubb View Post

Quite a few have these additional inputs and some have multiple additional inputs with some requiring at least one of them to be used if there are multiple gpu's present.
That's a rather bold statement considering we don't have any pci-e 4.0 devices, or even a pci-e 4.0 standard to test it with.

I take it back, I'm not sure where I read that.

Edit: Must have been an earler on in PCIe 4.0 development:
Quote:
PCIe 4.0 will usher in a new connector, but it is backwards compatible with PCIe 3.0 cards. But, PCIe 4.0-based cards will not work with the old PCIe 3.0 ports.
http://www.tweaktown.com/news/46190/pcie-4-feature-16gt-new-connector-arrive-2017/index.html
Edited by Yuhfhrh - 8/23/16 at 4:52pm
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post #115 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjdubb View Post

That's a rather bold statement considering we don't have any pci-e 4.0 devices, or even a pci-e 4.0 standard to test it with.

no, he has a point.

how do you expect a 300W PCI-e 4.0 device to run on a 75W PCI-e 3.0 slot?
either the device would run into power constraints, or the PEG slot will melt.
Edited by epic1337 - 8/23/16 at 5:07pm
post #116 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by looniam View Post

THAT

its high time for pci sig to update the PEG specs to 7 amps per pin; any decent PSU sold now can support that safely. so 7a*12v=85w/500w=5.8 pins or two 8 pin connectors (3*12v ,3*g and 2*sense pins each).

there is already a boot up sequence to allow 10, 25 or 75 watts through the slot. mobos will establish further power allowed if the pins are sensed on it's pcb connections; just as pins being sensed on a graphics card. (we went over this stuff on the 480 pci-e spec threads, right?)

its what they are going to do with the x16 slot that has me curious.

most of the worries seems to be on the connector melting off, this also concerns the PEG slot itself with it's tiny pins.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

issues regarding wires are mostly secondary, aside from half-assed PSUs, the only concerns regarding wires is when the wires are damaged.
either by puncture, slice, or fracture by too much bending, all these can cause a focal point for the current to cause ohmic heating.

what worries?

the terminals and mating blocks are already engineered spec'd to safely deliver 7amps per pin*; quality PSUs are engineered to provide 50% more. believe or not i am being somewhat conservative.

melting happens with QC of crimping terminals/wire; in any of those cases the amperage exceeded 7 amps pin pin by a considerable amount.

so yeah stop looking for problems that don't exisit (read: you're being an engineer tongue.gif )


*EDIT
i just realized i may be confusing saying they need to raise the spec but then say they are spec'd - mean for the 150 watt( 4.17amp per pin) rating the 8 pin has. it is already to provide 7 amps:

page 24
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6wpa2qa8vu415fv/PCIe_225_300W_14Mar08.pdf?dl=0


btw, a prototype of pci-e 3.0/4.0 compatible card:



https://tech4gamers.com/pci-express-4-0-interface-will-come-next-year/
Edited by looniam - 8/23/16 at 6:21pm
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post #117 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

no, he has a point.

how do you expect a 300W PCI-e 4.0 device to run on a 75W PCI-e 3.0 slot?
either the device would run into power constraints, or the PEG slot will melt.

Assumedly PCIe 4.0 cards that require more than 75W will have additional on-board power connectors for PCIe 2.0/3.0 compatibility, at least until 4.0 is common enough that not supporting the old standard won't significantly effect how many people can use the card. AIBs/manufacturers aren't crazy; they're not going to completely stop supporting an old standard when barely anyone can use the new one.
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post #118 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuhfhrh View Post


I take it back, I'm not sure where I read that.

Edit: Must have been an earler on in PCIe 4.0 development:
http://www.tweaktown.com/news/46190/pcie-4-feature-16gt-new-connector-arrive-2017/index.html

their article from 27 hours ago (from this post) still seems to reiterate this as if they have not changed it.
Quote:
The new PCIe 4.0 standard will be backwards compatible, so don't worry about using your current PCIe 3.0-based devices - but new PCIe 4.0-based devices can't be used on the older PCIe 3.0 standard.

http://www.tweaktown.com/news/53556/pcie-4-end-power-cables-gpus/index.html


If im reading everything that Al Yanes is saying right, compatibility is being used very loosely. Compatibly sounds like it will be broken, 4.0 slots will be backwards compatible with older standard cards, however the 4.0 cards will not be backwards compatible with older standard slots. If you want a 4.0 card and you are not on a chipset that has this standard you'll need to upgrade your cpu/motherboard.

Not to mention what is next in PCIe 5.0 is supposed to move to fiber, breaking compatibility again, entirely.
Edited by saintruski - 8/23/16 at 10:29pm
post #119 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post

Assumedly PCIe 4.0 cards that require more than 75W will have additional on-board power connectors for PCIe 2.0/3.0 compatibility, at least until 4.0 is common enough that not supporting the old standard won't significantly effect how many people can use the card. AIBs/manufacturers aren't crazy; they're not going to completely stop supporting an old standard when barely anyone can use the new one.

that would only delay 4.0 transition, or even cancel the power spec entirely.

this happened back in 2.0, it supposedly supports a maximum capacity of 300W.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/pci-express-2.0,1915-2.html
Quote:
Another improvement between PCI Express 1.1 and 2.0 is the maximum power that can be provided for PCI Express graphics cards (PEG). While this used to be 75 W plus 75 W auxiliary power for PCI Express 1.1, PCIe 2.0 now supports a maximum of up to 300 W when fully implemented on a motherboard.

Edited by epic1337 - 8/23/16 at 9:07pm
post #120 of 151
I still have one of these motherboards K9A2 Platinum. 4x pci-e 2.0 x16 slots and a molex to stabilize them. How will the pci-e 4.0 boards look like ? 8 pin power next to each slot ?


image courtesy of http://www.ixbt.com/
Edited by Catscratch - 8/23/16 at 11:47pm
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