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[TH] PCI Express 4.0 Brings 16 GT/s And At Least 300 Watts At The Slot - Page 10

post #91 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by DNMock View Post

In my mind im picturing something similar to how modded bios on a maxwell card works, you can set the voltage to whatever you want, but the hard cap on say a maxwell Titan-X is 1.274 volts, so even if your bios mod said 1.4 volts, your card won't care and still only allow the 1.274 volts through.

Just seems like it would allow GPU manufacturers to be lazy, and not have to design custom bios, and just allow the hard cap to prevent damaging voltages and leave it up to the motherboard folks to hash out the details.

Modern GPU's seem to have all the built in fail safes as modern CPU's do with throttling and such, so why not just let the motherboard folks deal with all that stuff?


I hear what you are saying though, I suppose I just see it being similar to overclocking your RAM I suppose.

Voltage control for graphics cards happens on the graphics card itself (the graphics card is like the motherboard for the GPU.) As someone mentioned earlier, what you're thinking would be exactly like a power supply doing the voltage regulation for a CPU instead of the motherboard, which simply doesn't happen.
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post #92 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZealotKi11er View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobiBolivia View Post

AMD has to include this in AM4 platform. Just sayin'.

Let them get PCIE 3.0 first. Also adding PCIE 4.0 is not that big of a deal if you have a good CPU. Zen+ will probably have PCIE 4.0.

They've had PCI-e 3.0 since Kavari.
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

how are they going to provide 300W onto the PCI-e?

the current 24-pin (the extra 4pin to be exact) that provides the power to the current PCI-e slots can't provide 300W by itself, let alone to all PCI-e slots.

A bunch of PCI-e 6-pins. Right next to the 24-pin. It'll look like a giant IDE cable!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imglidinhere View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

yeah, and imagine 4slots of PCI-e 4.0, 1200watts from where? and through the motherboard no less.

No current gen consumer setup today will draw more than 700w from the wall. There's simply no way you can do that feasibly unless you're benchmarking 4-way SLI or Crossfire with really really power hungry cards, and no one does that anyway.

This is merely providing the means by which you can transfer power through a slot. Hell, laptop MXM cards can handle up to around 150w from the board. o_o this isn't anything super shocking, more along the lines of: "About time. You're late."

Pretty much that, yea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twitchyzero View Post

can Titan Pascal even saturate pci-e 2.0 x16? I'm not talking about someone with 3-4 video cards. Single card setup.

I'm all for progress but let's at least see a benefit from pci-e 3.0 first before creating new standards?

Must have missed the bit where these go in servers.

Anyway, you have a Z77 board. Wouldn't you like to be able to use X4 slots for your GPUs and still be able to plug in other things for a change since Intel refuses to let the little chips have more than 16 lanes? Maybe be able to put in more than one M.2 drive without losing the ability to do SLI?
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imglidinhere View Post

No current gen consumer setup today will draw more than 700w from the wall. There's simply no way you can do that feasibly unless you're benchmarking 4-way SLI or Crossfire with really really power hungry cards, and no one does that anyway.

This is merely providing the means by which you can transfer power through a slot. Hell, laptop MXM cards can handle up to around 150w from the board. o_o this isn't anything super shocking, more along the lines of: "About time. You're late."

i was talking about worst case, e.g. quad CF 390X for example.
even on the most likely case, we'd have 1slot of PCI-e 4.0 (300W), and 3slots of PCI-e 3.0 (75W), thats 525W of theoretical power draw.

i'm saying that theres no power plug on the motherboard that can support such power draw.
even 300W alone, the existing 4pin auxiliary cable attached to the 24pin power won't supply that much.
unless they add multiple 8pin auxiliary power on the motherboard, or revise the 24pin altogether, they won't be going to supply 300W on a single PCI-e slot, let alone multiple slots.

I guarantee you the people at PCI-SIG figured that out all on their own.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussiejuggalo View Post

I like the idea of having GPU's with no extra power cables, would mean less stuffing around, cleaner rigs but at the same time 300w is a hell of a lot of power running through the board, not saying it cant be done, thicker tracers, thicker boards etc is easy.

But... 300w... though a motherboard... if the motherboard shorts either by water / coolant or some fault... depending on how many AMP's are running through... could potentially be dangerous, not only that it means more power for things to really go bang.

I hope they really think this through before doing it.

Again with acting as if 300w is a lot.

Do you have any idea the power levels "LN2" motherboards can already throw around? EPS 4-pin is literally 4 lines of 12v and the spec says they need to be capable of carrying 20 amps. That's 240w in a single 4-pin. An 8-pin adds another 50% for 360w. Some better boards have 8+4 or even 8+8 for 600w or 720w. And it isn't for show either. A well OC'd on water PD chip is capable of nearly maxing out a single EPS 8-pin.

Why don't we just power the entire PC with a USB-C cable. Not that much power that I think of it.
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post #93 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by DNMock View Post

In my mind im picturing something similar to how modded bios on a maxwell card works, you can set the voltage to whatever you want, but the hard cap on say a maxwell Titan-X is 1.274 volts, so even if your bios mod said 1.4 volts, your card won't care and still only allow the 1.274 volts through.

Just seems like it would allow GPU manufacturers to be lazy, and not have to design custom bios, and just allow the hard cap to prevent damaging voltages and leave it up to the motherboard folks to hash out the details.

Modern GPU's seem to have all the built in fail safes as modern CPU's do with throttling and such, so why not just let the motherboard folks deal with all that stuff?


I hear what you are saying though, I suppose I just see it being similar to overclocking your RAM I suppose.

The difference is that the voltage regulation and power delivery components are built into the motherboard for RAM. The motherboard software would have to support all variants of power delivery etc. for every brand of every card (many of which have different power systems) in order to work. I would rather have my bios made by the people who made the card instead of a dumbed down version that works on all brands of all cards.
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post #94 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarathKasun View Post

You can accomplish BC with a sense pin or ack request to initialize the slot in 12v only or in 12v/3.3v mode.

This is what AGP did, but only for signaling pins, not actual power delivery pins, and there was only one AGP slot on a board. I suppose it's possible to do this for the delivery pins on each PCI-E slot, but that sounds like it would be a lot of extra complexity.

Still, there are six currently reserved pins that could more easily be used for this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DNMock View Post

Why not, I can control every other voltage that's run through the motherboard via bios.

You can't control the +3.3v, +5v, and +12v rails on your PSU via your motherboard's BIOS and if you could you'd have a tiny usable range before things stopped working.

The power delivery for expansion cards is completely passive. It's a set of traces that conduct power directly from the power connectors to the slots. This will not change when slots are capable of providing more power.

The VRMs for a video card, and thus all control over the voltages actually delivered to GPU or VRAM, will remain on the card. Nothing about PCI-E 4.0 is going to change that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DNMock View Post

I hear what you are saying though, I suppose I just see it being similar to overclocking your RAM I suppose.

Main memory doesn't receive power directly from a major PSU rail, it goes through a VRM on the board you have control over.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussiejuggalo View Post

I know CPU's can pull that much but adding that plus the GPU means the motherboards will be pulling all the power so again if there's a watercooling leak / hardware fault that'll be full PSU power through the motherboard, can be dangerous not to mention a bigger bang when something goes wrong.

Power deliver to PCI-E slots is and will remain a passive affair. Current goes from a power connector through a set of traces, or a whole board layer, to whatever is connected to them.

A short means the system shuts off because you just connected the PSU's +12v rail to ground. A compromised trace that increases resistance could potentially set a board on fire (as can happen now), but that can happen just as readily at almost any current level if there are no safeguards to prevent it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussiejuggalo View Post

Like I said it'd be great if they could do it but if a fault happens or whatever they need to make damn sure they can dissipate that power quickly because if the caps store it and you go to work on it and you have no clue (like most) how to short the motherboard or power supply... well nuff said really.

The only capacitors between a PCI-E slot and a PSU are minor filtering ones and PCI-E 4.0 isn't going to change that.

A board with more power connectors and more robust traces isn't any more dangerous than any other.
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post #95 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarathKasun View Post

You can accomplish BC with a sense pin or ack request to initialize the slot in 12v only or in 12v/3.3v mode.

thats a dangerous approach, if the negotiation fails due to a glitch or bug the board will go up in flames, literally.
plus i doubt most users would even update their bios to support a revised PSU.

a better approach is to change from the 24pin connector entirely, to support backward compatibility an adapter cable would suffice.
Edited by epic1337 - 8/22/16 at 4:31pm
post #96 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuhfhrh View Post

Voltage control for graphics cards happens on the graphics card itself (the graphics card is like the motherboard for the GPU.) As someone mentioned earlier, what you're thinking would be exactly like a power supply doing the voltage regulation for a CPU instead of the motherboard, which simply doesn't happen.

I hear ya, and the others, what you are saying making perfect sense, and I knew it was a bit of a pipe dream before thinking about the technological aspects of it, but I man can hope, even if it's a fools hope. biggrin.gif
post #97 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussiejuggalo View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Again with acting as if 300w is a lot.

Do you have any idea the power levels "LN2" motherboards can already throw around? EPS 4-pin is literally 4 lines of 12v and the spec says they need to be capable of carrying 20 amps. That's 240w in a single 4-pin. An 8-pin adds another 50% for 360w. Some better boards have 8+4 or even 8+8 for 600w or 720w. And it isn't for show either. A well OC'd on water PD chip is capable of nearly maxing out a single EPS 8-pin.

I know CPU's can pull that much but adding that plus the GPU means the motherboards will be pulling all the power so again if there's a watercooling leak / hardware fault that'll be full PSU power through the motherboard, can be dangerous not to mention a bigger bang when something goes wrong.

Like I said it'd be great if they could do it but if a fault happens or whatever they need to make damn sure they can dissipate that power quickly because if the caps store it and you go to work on it and you have no clue (like most) how to short the motherboard or power supply... well nuff said really.

There would not be any caps to store power on the motherboard. It is only a line feed.

This is more or less the same thing as complaining that you could spill water on the PCI-e connector of your GPU, except that the traces in the MB would be covered by Fiberglass and paint. I hope you know that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLAWNOOB View Post

Why don't we just power the entire PC with a USB-C cable. Not that much power that I think of it.

You could, for most weaker computers. Like every Tablet, Phone, and even some smaller laptops. Or most Intel NUCs. Or an RPi.

But our stuff doesn't run off 5v, so it's a no-go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarathKasun View Post

You can accomplish BC with a sense pin or ack request to initialize the slot in 12v only or in 12v/3.3v mode.

thats a dangerous approach, if the negotiation fails due to a glitch or bug the board will go up in flames, literally.
plus i doubt most users would even update their bios to support a revised PSU.

a better approach is to change from the 24pin connector entirely, to support backward compatibility an adapter cable would suffice.

Card/MB negotiation, not MB/PSU.

We already use Card/MB to handle what version of PCI-e is used (1.1, 2.0, 3.0, number of lanes, etc)
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post #98 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Card/MB negotiation, not MB/PSU.

We already use Card/MB to handle what version of PCI-e is used (1.1, 2.0, 3.0, number of lanes, etc)

ohh, i hadn't noticed they were talking about the PEG pins.

its still a dangerous approach though.
problematic part in this is that, if the motherboard defaults to 12v it risks over-voltage, where as if it defaults to 3.3v there would be insufficient voltage.
i guess the trick here would be to have one set of pin to default to 3.3v for negotiation, it would power up the card's bios chip.
Edited by epic1337 - 8/22/16 at 11:04pm
post #99 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Card/MB negotiation, not MB/PSU.

We already use Card/MB to handle what version of PCI-e is used (1.1, 2.0, 3.0, number of lanes, etc)

ohh, i hadn't noticed they were talking about the PEG pins.

its still a dangerous approach though.
problematic part in this is that, if the motherboard defaults to 12v it risks over-voltage, where as if it defaults to 3.3v there would be insufficient voltage.
i guess the trick here would be to have one set of pin to default to 3.3v for negotiation, it would power up the card's bios chip.

That's pretty much how it works, yea.

They say it will be compatible. We'll see. It should be an official spec soon enough with a pinout.
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post #100 of 151
So....how many PCIe 4.0 slots are we expecting to see on a motherboard? Just one? Two? Four?

Four would end up with a capability of delivering 1.2 kW just for the PCIe slots. My entire power supply puts out that much, and I'm supposed to be able to, or want to for that matter, route all that power through the motherboard somehow?
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