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Any opinions or reviews on the new Dell S2417DG? - Page 154

post #1531 of 1553
I think i've spent too many hours around this, and there's a time i will start questining if everything is wrong. When you tell to reset the profile, you use "sRGB virtual divice model profile" is this the default from windows?. I will trie quickgamma. Did you change your colors, brightness and saturation, from osd? Thanks for the help.
post #1532 of 1553
Quote:
Originally Posted by KGPrime View Post

Colors themselves are actually pretty good out of the box, more than anything adjusting the gamma will be all you really need to do. And then adjust your OSD RGB sliders for the monitor to look very good.

You can get the banding almost entirely gone and fix the gamma very well if you don't have a calibrator using Quick Gamma and using Lagom downloadable Test images WITHOUT an embedded sRGB profile. In other words NOT the images that are on the main pages. Do not use those as they will give you a false representation of what your system is actually outputting. They have included the Non embedded profiles for download. Download them and save them on your desktop. View them with a good image viewer, such as XnView.

The images should be centered on your screen. Eyes at basically mid screen or slightly lower. The thing to look for is is any banding in gradients. If you try to fiddle with the gamma of this monitor, or try to add digital vibrance you will start to see banding in all gradients. Most easily noticeable in black to green and black to white. I do not believe any calibrator can or will fix this completely on this monitor. I believe the only way this can be truly remedied is through a firmware update, better firmware tuning, and better OSD settings. Calibrating may make some of your colors more "accurate", like from 3.0 to 1.0 deviation, ( mostly unnoticeable to anyone but color professionals who stare at images for 12 hours a day or do prints ) but it will not and cannot fix the gamma perfectly without introducing banding or introducing color cast in gradients. Something most of you will see when trying to use other peoples color profiles. If you see that your banding problem has just gotten worse and will rear it's ugly head sooner or later in the right content.

The reason i say to use the NON sRGB embedded Lagom images http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/ ( download at the bottom) is because the ones with embedded sRGB basically assume that web content, images ect have embedded sRBG profiles. Which is not always the case, and on those images you may see banding, where Srgb embedded images look fine, something like your homepage news feed images or similar might pop out to you immediately. If you adjust your image with the Non Srgb profile images to look good, the Srgb embedded images should still look good as they did before, but so will the non color profile embedded images as they are using your OS color settings.

So that's Web content., or any images on your PC like wallpapers ect without an embedded color profile, that aren't actually botched by the creator, like handmade backgrounds, not camera photos, that contain gradients. Camera photos along with jpeg compression will often have compression artifacts. Something you can not get rid of because it is in the source. You can only really mask it by crushing blacks or the lower end of your color spectrum.

Some of my own test images. Larger and easier to utilize on a 24" 1440p monitor.

2048x800 Black to White gradient - No embedded color profile. BMP files. No compression. ( A 256 pixel gradient would be ideal, but this enhances any banding/stepping that might be present, besides the fact that a 256 pixel wide image it too tiny on this monitor to be useful imo)
NewGradient.bmp 4800k .bmp file

2048x800 Black to Green
gradientGREEN-BLACK1.bmp 736k .bmp file

2048x800 Black to Red
gradientRED-BLACK1.bmp 736k .bmp file

2048x800 Black To Blue
gradientBLUE-BLACK1.bmp 736k .bmp file

Simple Red Green and Blue Blocks
RGB-1.bmp 736k .bmp file

Understand any single gradient issue like the green channel will effect a lot of things. Basically any gradient that has a hint of green in it, even if it's a "blue" gradient" that is not pure blue but has some green channel in it and the more it has the more it will be skewed by a bad green channel gradient and vice versa.
On my unit the green channel gradient is the first to go noticeably bad by any changes in contrast or gamma ect.

Using someone else profile is like 90% futile. For instance when i tried Adams profile from PCmonitors.info banding and color cast across gradients and the Lagom blocks was terrible. (Pcmonitors.info shout out as one of my favorite review reads for various reasons and keeps getting better, even though he lacks the high end equipment of Prad or TFT i appreciate his approach and videos a lot. But all of these sites i have been reading consistently since basically their inception on the web ) It's not generally recommended by anyone who knows what they are talking about ( Adam included) but only offered as a Hail Mary. If you are at wits end, sure try it, but don't be surprised if it makes everything worse. And by that i mean you tested all gradients and color cast ect and it did not make something totally out of whack while you think it fixed something else.

Your other option on this monitor is to use NVCP and crush your blacks/lower end. It gives a more contrasty look and may mask "some" banding or jpeg artifact ect, but will introduce more problems in other areas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KGPrime View Post

Ill try to make this to short and to the point, something i am practically incapable of doing tongue.gif

You should be able to get acceptable color out of this panel without too much effort, actually it is already good out of the box and anything around 3 or less Delta is perfectly fine for pc gaming or anything else. Albeit it may be slightly less "saturated" than say your TV because of the gamma. But it's color range is better than most older Tns or even cheap e Ips panels.

A calibrator is preferred, No doubt. But you do not need one to get acceptable and decent color unless a monitor is absolutely abysmal out of the box. This one is not, at least mine isn't....

A calibrator does all this stuff when calibrating as well as fine tunes each 16 million colors. We are not "fixing" individual colors since there's no way you can without one. But, again not really necessary in general to have an excellent image and color on this monitor overall. The gamma is really what needs a little work.

So if we are doing this by eye, first you have to understand the difference between Brightness, or "Black Point" or sometimes refereed to as white point., and Gamma and Contrast.

You can have a low brightness and therefor a good black point also have the image not seem "dull" at all.

Gamma affects the brightness of the midrange of color and "saturation" most.

Brightness affects everything equally.

Contrast obviously is the difference between black and white or dark an light.

You want all three in harmony.

The RGB sliders in your OSD mostly affect Color Temperature, or that's how you want to think of it. And should only be used sparingly. So if your whites are greenish, lower your green or raise your blue and red ect, in general. But lowering or raising RGB in your OSD is not for "fixing" your colors per se. It's just more for getting your whites either pure white, or cooler or warmer. And you should only have to touch them for that purpose and in very small amounts 1% 2%.

I found no benefit or need to lower Contrast at all. I had no white3 clipping or any issues at default. Lowering it only lowers the already low contrast and as a side affect makes the image look more flat and dull, probably making you thin you need to raidse brightness thereby ruining your black point. I recommend leave it at 75.

I personally use Quick Gamma with great result. I also use Lagoms downloadable Non sRGB embedded Red Green Blue Gamma test image as it's easier to read than the one in Quick Gamma, even though it's actually the same image made by the same person the lagom one is bigger and easier to see and use.

So i just work with that and as it turned out each channel individually. till i finally A. Accepted around gamma 2.1 was fine. ( Photog and print used to use gamma 1.8, to see darker detail better, but that would be considered too washed out for media and gaming.) And B. Took into account i could get the 2.2 look by using horizontal viewing angle to my advantage, IE: Titling the panel back about 1 degree back and raising it up slightly than i normally would. ) And so when you lean back into game mode in your chair, if you do, lowering your eye angle slightly it actually brings the gamma to closer to 2.2, and also helps mask any residual banding or compression artifacts in images or games that is there in the source. ( it's a fine balance and when you find it it still looks good sitting back or sitting up straight ) When i'm in photoshop i sit straight up as to see all darker detail better.

Once i achieved around 2.1 on all three channels equally ( blue is hardest to do ) it may create a white point color cast, Open a white screen to check for like slightly blue or warm overall or greenish whites. THEN i lower Red Green or Blue in the OSD a notch or two to equal out my White Point.
After i was done with my gamma channels I had a cool almost grennish tint to my white point, so i then dropped green and blue down to 98% from 100%.

So basically in a nut shell.

The OSD settings should all be at 100% when you work on your gamma.
It's likely you will have to work on your gamma RGB channels independent of each other. On CRT monitors this would sometimes be a setting called "Gain". Red Green or Blue channel "Gain".
After you get that you will may have a color tint or "white point" tint. If so then use your OSD to bring it back to White. It should be only slight ammount an not effect your overall RGB color. You can use a swatch to check them.


You should also have no banding in any of the gradients i've posted for the most part. I still have the slightest almost unnoticeable amount in my green gradient.
The lower range closest to black stepping you might notice in the black to white cannot be "fixed" perfectly i do not believe, but it;s pretty good overall and it will be the same with the red green and blue gradients.
Rest your eyes occasionally while doing this. Staring at a blue swatch and then immediately trying to check your whites you are going to see blue for a second. And your eyes will bug out of you dolt rest them.
When i think about it you can probably use NVCP and individually adjust your RGB channels. I suspect Quick Gamma with the test patters and the Lagom Non sRGB Embedded Gamma test image is much better and easier to use.
Make sure all test images and or Quick Gamma is located on your screen as centrally as possible.
It takes some time to get it right.

Digital Vibrancy raises the gamma and saturation all at once and ruins all calibration across the board. But may look pleasing to some people to turn on in some games, like fighting games/cartoony games ect. But overall is not needed.

And finally you get used to the new thing you use frequently quickly. Be it Monitors, new shoes, or a new car. And all of a sudden it's is the old comfortable thing and the old old thing looks or feels weird.
GL

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeLish View Post

I think i've spent too many hours around this, and there's a time i will start questining if everything is wrong. When you tell to reset the profile, you use "sRGB virtual divice model profile" is this the default from windows?. I will trie quickgamma. Did you change your colors, brightness and saturation, from osd? Thanks for the help.

Refer to those two posts.
Yes rest your eyes while doing this. The OSD RGB will be the last thing you change to make sure your white point is correct. If you like a cooler look or warmer look it is up to you. No one says you have to have 6500k white point. I personally go for very slightly warmer because the LED bother my eyes. Cooler will trick your eyes, thinking it "pops" more. Some may prefer it. My Osd settings for RGB don't matter, it may be different for you. But for reference i didn't change them much, just R100 G 98 B 98.
Edited by KGPrime - 10/18/17 at 7:37pm
post #1533 of 1553
Thank you. I will trie it.
It is a shame, that we have to take a masters degree...just to make this monitor work proprely.
post #1534 of 1553
Yeah if they had 2.2 gamma out of the box, or an OSD setting. Still the value across the board is hard to beat for resolution, ppi, gsync and non grainy coating.

I'll try to add some clarity if possible if some things still don't make sense,

Basically what you want to do is to try to raise the gamma closer to 2.2 and also make sure your gradients are smooth at the same time. Try doing all colors linked first, then look at what happens to the gradients. If green goes bad, you might change RED and it fixes green. Just balance them, There is a sweet spot you just need to find it, and also the "punch" of RGB on the RGB swatch will look equal.
You might have the slightest tiniest amount of striping in one of the 3 color gradients ( probably green) but should be so little it's hard to see at a casual look. I could not get my green gradient absolutely perfect. But it's very good, two tiny stripes in the mid and lower mids far apart from each other that are almost invisible at a casual glance.

So as you are adjusting the gamma you should keep checking the gradients and the gamma chart, but for instance. Make Green Alone down to 2.1-2.2 it's easiest to see ( on the Quick Gamma or Lagom chart, ignore the actual Numbers in Quick Gamma RGB boxes) Just use the chart. Then do Red. Then Blue.
Now the Numbers in Quick Gamma may all be different, but the gamma chart the colors should all be equal. Blue is the hardest one. And if the RGB Swatch looks somewhat EVEN in luminence you know you are on the right track.. Which is also hard because Green always looks brightest then Red then Blue seems dark. But, again, there is a sweet spot. It comes together in the end anyway. I just use it to get a visual, checking everything all the time back and forth and taking a break on my eyes. Walk back into the room sit down at your actual seat keep your eye level to center and all images dead center as you can.

So then i start using mostly the gradients to fix any banding. You adjust one color at a time. Which color is the worst ( Green on mine) You may start adjusting RED, and see what it does to Green because each one effects the other to some degree. You see the bands move until they go smooth if you hold the Quick Gamma slider and let it spin really fast you can see what it;s doing. So if you make large obviously over the top adjustments you can see what it's doing wrong, but ultimately keep in mind you original "number" in the Quick Gamma box and hover around it, lower or higher little bits at a time. Or go big and bring it down. Sometimes that's easier.

But just remember, you already got each color to 2.2 . So you shouldn't want to or need to go too far either way. There really isn't a lot of room for it to be perfect, It is or it isn't and it's obvious as far as the bands int he gradients it goes smooth then instantly bad again, so it's really just about finding that spot. By the time i was done they ended up around 2.1 actually, and as it happened the RGB swatch ended up looking uniform, like one color wasn't more bright or punchy than the other, more like the colors were on a piece of paper instead of neon backlit. Hard to describe. . . Then if your overall screen white point seems green or blue or pink or whatever use the osd to fix it. It shouldn't be but a slight adjustment to R G or B then, or none at all.

How it ended up. on mine, Blue was too Punchy. Green was about right but had banding. Red was slightly actually under Punchy but appeared too punchy because it had too much Green cast in it. so it was not quite perfect Red. Grey gradient adjusted itself along the way mostly, though i check them all constantly, and they all ended up in harmony, like a puzzle. The last thing was White point was too color for me. Or perhaps slightly Greenish Blue. I lowered Green and Blue 2 steps in OSD and got the Warm white point i wanted. If i put them at 99 it will be more neutral. But i prefer it slightly warm. You might prefer it slightly cool.

For example. In the end the numbers in my sliders in Quick Gamma ended up being

R 2.04
G 2.14
B 2.32

So don't look at it like trying to put the number 2.2 and it's going to be 2.2 gamma. It's not.

All ended up around 2.1 in the gamma RGB chart and a total average gamma of 2.1. I honestly nailed it and won't be changing anything. Reds aren't too hot, Blues aren't greenish, neon or purple, and Greens and Yellows are really uniform to each other, noticeably equal in their saturation like in my Osd settings in my task bar from Afterburner, just something i see every day all the time that if it was off it would be so noticeable and annoying..so that's what made me decide to ultimately keep the monitor. We'll see what happens in 2018.

Try to keep your eye level consistent. No matter what it's a tn panel so even a little bit of movement up or down will change the gamma response. It's the most important thing so you don't go in circles.
post #1535 of 1553
I'm going to trie this next week, i will report my results. Just one question, when i start the procedure, even brightness (OSD) is untouched?
Sounds challeging. Thank man, you have been very informative. Dell support in my country are useless.
Edited by BeLish - 10/19/17 at 4:32pm
post #1536 of 1553
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeLish View Post

I'm going to trie this next week, i will report my results. Just one question, when i start the procedure, even brightness (OSD) is untouched?
Sounds challeging. Thank man, you have been very informative. Dell support in my country are useless.

No you want to set your desired brightness setting first. It dictates your "calibration" and if you change it too much after you "calibrate" it will affect it negatively, An actual calibrator takes this into account when calibrating your monitor. So if you use say someone else .icc profile, but perhaps try to change the brightness too much it will go bad,

Interestingly i just searched and found this thread to help me explain it clearly without a wall of text tongue.gif and Quick Gamma was mentioned. I agree with the comments in general. http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=427077 But if you don't print then whatever your eyes prefer is fine. I do prefer a low brightness and a paper like quality to my screen as opposed to the overly bright backlit "lightbox" look. Plus my black point is twice as low as say 30 brightness and subjectively nearly VA level blacks, at least that a typical person would have using a VA panel at what seems to be the typical brightness people seem to like. And the actual contrast is not too negatively affected if taking Adam from pcmonitors.info findings. So probably around 850:1. He got 940:1 max but with a searingly bright 235cd/m2 White point and a terrible/unusable "black" level. If you can even call .25 cd/m2 black.

I would not change the default Contrast though. Lowering it does nothing positive, at least i found it not needed in my case. Raising it, at least too much definitely has a negative effect, so 75 seems the most balanced setting.
post #1537 of 1553
One thing i notice, on this monitor. It is if drag a window(with grays) from top to bottom, the color seems to be a little brighter at the end. But depends on my view angle, i guess this is the price to have a 27 tn panel i suppose.
post #1538 of 1553
I tried, and it looks so mutch better, the colors, are far better balanced, and not oversaturated.I started with your settings with quick gamma, and started tunning. Red and blue dont have any banding. But green, i'm having trouble, it always have "strips". I cant look to the vertical lines for too long while looking to the gamma tunning painel, it makes so mutch strain in my eyes.
The white is so mutch better.Tks a lot, i will be tunning until i think its perfect. I kept standard color preset, on OSD. I like the tone. The only thing, that still bothers a bit, are some grays.. they are still slightly brown/yellow for my taste.. for example in Nvidia experience painel or 3dMax.
Edited by BeLish - 10/22/17 at 7:32pm
post #1539 of 1553
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeLish View Post

I tried, and it looks so mutch better, the colors, are far better balanced, and not oversaturated.I started with your settings with quick gamma, and started tunning. Red and blue dont have any banding. But green, i'm having trouble, it always have "strips". I cant look to the vertical lines for too long while looking to the gamma tunning painel, it makes so mutch strain in my eyes.
The white is so mutch better.Tks a lot, i will be tunning until i think its perfect. I kept standard color preset, on OSD. I like the tone. The only thing, that still bothers a bit, are some grays.. they are still slightly brown/yellow for my taste.. for example in Nvidia experience painel or 3dMax.

Cool man, glad you're getting it worked out. Yeah the green gradient i could not get perfect. It is still pretty good, but there is like two spots where if you look for it you can see some stripes, like maybe 2 noticeable ones, not sure it can be much better, maybe, but i am content with it.

Well with the greys it's mostly because you are used to seeing false color with blue cast from your other monitor i think. But I understand about having a preference in your programs where you spend a lot of time or create. Colors tend to affect my mood and creativity and i'm super picky about that. Sometimes i won't even use a program till i change it. Definitely for Max when it was just the old white Windows System look. In fact i'm pretty sure the first thing i did in Max was change the UI layout and colors before i even knew how to use the program tongue.gif

Example...i just whipped this up with "Blue" in mind.


Well it matches my Windows UI pretty good i might use it biggrin.gif

Go To Customize>Customization>Customize User Interface> Colors Tab - Scheme: Custom Colors

Some of the stuff (Ui objects) is scattered around till you know what to look for. But "Background" is the main overall background color, "Window" is the lighter color boxes. Viewports has settings for the 3D viewport gradient, and background of the 2D views ect...Quad menu settings is in the Quad "advanced" options. You just have to play around with it. Also the colors don't exactly match up to what you pick from the color picker when you apply them due to the way they coded the UI, so you have to play with the saturation and lightness till it feels right. 3D Shadows and Highlights is like buttons and highlights of the buttons and boxes, ( just like Win 98 Win XP days changing colors in Windows UI) but it also affects text on your modifier buttons so it's limited in what you can choose there depending on your background color.

You can also choose the Light theme, or use Windows Colors.
Edited by KGPrime - 10/23/17 at 12:53am
post #1540 of 1553
Yes, years with the other monitor, i can see now how mutch blue it is rolleyes.gif. How about watching movies or tvseries? When i watch, there are some scenes that have a slightly warm tone, even if i put the cool preset from osd. It's strange, i'm not used to it. But overall, i'm happy now.
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