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[Reuters] EU demands Apple pay Ireland up to 13 billion euros in tax - Page 2  

post #11 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by sherlock View Post

EU demands CONSUMERS pay 13 billion euro in tax through higher Apple prices.

FTFY rolleyes.gif

Corporate taxes are just more convoluted Consumer taxes, except it make the dumb consumers(those who didn't sit through MicroEcon 101 in college) feel good about themselves as they perceive the rich companies are getting taxed when in the end it is they themselves who are paying the bill.

That's not exactly correct but even it was, we have no control over how they redistribute the pain, what we do have control over is the level of taxation which should be consistent with the laws. Are you suggesting we stop asking for corporate taxes altogether? I mean according to your logic those taxes are just passed on to the dumb consumer anyway right?
Edited by Jupitel - 8/30/16 at 10:04am
post #12 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jupitel View Post

Basically Ireland did what every small country does, it turned itself into a place with low corporate taxes so that companies would move their headquarters (piece of paper not actual buildings) to there. Luxemburg, Isle of Man (UK), Puerto Rico (US), Vatican, etc they all do it in one form or the other (low income/corporate/inher taxes). Difference is that Ireland is actually part of the EU (member state), and they simply do not have the power to lowball other EU countries and especially grant specific deals to specific companies. Please keep in mind that what Ireland is doing might be beneficial to them, but very dangerous to everyone else as it encourages a "race to the bottom" as in nations competing to give corporation the better deal.

I'm quite interested to see what comes of this. It would be a pretty bad thing if, well, basically any big tech company that's currently here, were to up and leave because of this (that's very unlikely, at least in the short term), but I wouldn't mind seeing Apple brought down a peg or two. They're paying far less tax than most other companies their size.
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post #13 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serephucus View Post

I'm quite interested to see what comes of this. It would be a pretty bad thing if, well, basically any big tech company that's currently here, were to up and leave because of this (that's very unlikely, at least in the short term), but I wouldn't mind seeing Apple brought down a peg or two. They're paying far less tax than most other companies their size.

I was referring to an action (lowering corporate taxes) that is often taken by countries that do not actually produce very much indeed but instead live off successful economies by offering tax heavens. This is what in essence Ireland has been doing after the last bailout, you can check the numbers yourself and compare them to other countries, you do not have to believe me. I have nothing against Ireland.

As far as the Vatican is concerned I'm Italian myself and I can make you a list of the things their bank pulled off in the past 60 years, such as recycling money for italian organized crime. Basically all these countries have in common 1) Are small and independent 2) Do not have a real economy 3) Rely on low corporate/inheritance/income taxes to attract business headquarters and offshore accounts. This is what Ireland has been doing to boost their economy, Apple case is significant because it seems that ,according to the EU commission, Ireland not just gave low corporate taxes (lower than allowed) to many companies but in particular Apple (maybe even 0.005% taxes on profits). This doesn't mean Ireland IS one of these "useless" countries, I never implied it nor have I ever believed it.

As far as personal insults are concerned I won't bother with that, if you're that hanged up on the word "useless" I can only conclude you have nothing better to do today or say in this discussion. Regardless, I'd like to offer my most sincere apologies to any Irishmen/Irishwoman I might have offended with my comments, I already stated it many times, but I have nothing against Ireland at all.
post #14 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by sherlock View Post

EU demands CONSUMERS pay 13 billion euro in tax through higher Apple prices.

FTFY rolleyes.gif

Corporate taxes are just more convoluted Consumer taxes, except it make the dumb consumers(those who didn't sit through MicroEcon 101 in college) feel good about themselves as they perceive the rich companies are getting taxed when in the end it is they themselves who are paying the bill.

Apple can't tax me for products I don't buy. If dumb people want to pay Apple's tax for them, that's fine by me.
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post #15 of 36
As much as I'm sure apple can afford it even though they'll still pass the losses along to the consumers, this is still just a giant illegal EU shakedown. Ireland made it's corp tax rate low to draw in business. It worked, lots of companies moved to ireland which made ireland a LOT of money. Now the other EU countries, angry about all the $$ ireland is making (and that they are not), is punishing the corporations which moved there for the low tax rate. How can you tax a company AFTER the fact?

Imagine this. Imagine the US government passed an across the board tax increase, of 5%, then angry that people had paid 5% less for the past decade, sued every citizen who did not pay the extra 5% on the LAST 10 YEARS for those taxes.

The way the EU works is reminiscent of a criminal organization
 
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post #16 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by t00sl0w View Post

i dont buy this common scare tactic passed around when people want to prosecute corps for their wrong-doings or unethical activity.....it always gets brought up and in this case they should have never "been there" in the first place so its a non issue.
corps never flee like people say they will if they have a reason to exist in a location....they simply like to try and scare people away from their money.

Who said I'm advocating for companies to get tax free business?
I'm just stating a fact.
If Ireland no longer a tax haven for them, and they will find no added benefits to stay there, they will cut it out. Why keep offices which used to be just for show or to keep the tabs, when you can now do it everywhere?

All it will make is a few thousands of people will lose their jobs, and ireland won't see any more cents out of those companies. Which is the reason why ireland (along with a lot of political pressure), will want for things to stay as they are.

This is not "scare tactic", since you clearly doesn't understand how a business works. This is simple truth. If you come to someone's house for the flowers, and you suddenly realise there are no more flowers, you might as well move to somewhere there are flowers, or just a place easier for you instead.
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post #17 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jupitel View Post

I was referring to an action (lowering corporate taxes) that is often taken by countries that do not actually produce very much indeed but instead live off successful economies by offering tax heavens. This is what in essence Ireland has been doing after the last bailout, you can check the numbers yourself and compare them to other countries, you do not have to believe me. I have nothing against Ireland.

As far as the Vatican is concerned I'm Italian myself and I can make you a list of the things their bank pulled off in the past 60 years, such as recycling money for italian organized crime. Basically all these countries have in common 1) Are small and independent 2) Do not have a real economy 3) Rely on low corporate/inheritance/income taxes to attract business headquarters and offshore accounts. This is what Ireland has been doing to boost their economy, Apple case is significant because it seems that ,according to the EU commission, Ireland not just gave low corporate taxes (lower than allowed) to many companies but in particular Apple (maybe even 0.005% taxes on profits). This doesn't mean Ireland IS one of these "useless" countries, I never implied it nor have I ever believed it.

As far as personal insults are concerned I won't bother with that, if you're that hanged up on the word "useless" I can only conclude you have nothing better to do today or say in this discussion. Regardless, I'd like to offer my most sincere apologies to any Irishmen/Irishwoman I might have offended with my comments, I already stated it many times, but I have nothing against Ireland at all.

Many small countries have to do it in order to keep employment up. Overall that is the highest reason for this practice.

When a tech giant comes and hires 10000 people, it means 10000 people are getting money, and from that money, the government is getting money by taxing them.
If that tech giant leaves because they no longer get tax reductions, it means 10000 people are now unemployed. And if they can't find a job similar in other businesses, it means less evolvement of the country.

There are a lot of pros and cons to this practice.

The vatican in that concern, is not even similar. They aren't business tax heaven. They have no taxes on the basis that all the money they are getting is to pay for the priesthood and the preservations of the catholic real-estates.
If they gave apple a place to build offices and employ people and pay no tax, inside the vatican area, people would cry out before morning.
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post #18 of 36
Due to their greed, it's pretty messed up either way. I think the cons weigh more than the pros at this point, considering the outcome will be far greater as they've proceeded to walk down this path.
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post #19 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

Many small countries have to do it in order to keep employment up. Overall that is the highest reason for this practice.

When a tech giant comes and hires 10000 people, it means 10000 people are getting money, and from that money, the government is getting money by taxing them.
If that tech giant leaves because they no longer get tax reductions, it means 10000 people are now unemployed. And if they can't find a job similar in other businesses, it means less evolvement of the country.

There are a lot of pros and cons to this practice.

The vatican in that concern, is not even similar. They aren't business tax heaven. They have no taxes on the basis that all the money they are getting is to pay for the priesthood and the preservations of the catholic real-estates.
If they gave apple a place to build offices and employ people and pay no tax, inside the vatican area, people would cry out before morning.

I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing. What Ireland allegedly did was illegal regardless of the validity of that tactic. Also Apple has been in Ireland since 1980s and they only employ around 22.000 in the entire continent. As far as the Vatican they fit perfectly as they are also (not like Ireland) small, independent country that doesn't produce anything and relies on tax status to make money, in the case of the Vatican is to allow their accounts to be used to recycle illegally gained money, so I feel they fit very well with my example although you are correct most of the their profits come from donations and tax free status.
post #20 of 36
Corporations shouldn't be taxed by anyone. They should pay the normal regulatory fees to cover the costs associated with their industries covered (things like orphan well funds for the oil industry), and pay things like land taxes on land they own, but corporate income shouldn't be taxed. Corporations aren't people and corporate taxes are just governments double dipping by taxing the same money twice. Once when it's earned by the corp and a 2nd time when it's passed along to the shareholders. Corporations should be regulated lightly but effectively and wherever needed, not taxed.

meh.
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