Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Hardware News › [TH]Intel Kaby Lake: 14nm+, Higher Clocks, New Media Engine
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

[TH]Intel Kaby Lake: 14nm+, Higher Clocks, New Media Engine - Page 2

post #11 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

wouldn't it be simpler if they integrate a dedicated OpenCL pipeline into the CPU cores?

Well won't that require dedicated cores to run the GPU commands under hardware, unless you want to run GPU commands on software which is a hell of a lot less efficient.
So in that case, there you go. The iGPU is basically the cores needed to run the OpenCL on the CPU.
Main system
(16 items)
 
Editing PC
(8 items)
 
 
CPUGraphicsGraphicsRAM
E5-1680v2 AMD FirePro D700 AMD FirePro D700 64GB 1866mhz 
Hard DriveOSMonitorCase
1TB PCIE SSD OSX 10.10.x Dell U2713H Mac Pro 
  hide details  
Reply
Main system
(16 items)
 
Editing PC
(8 items)
 
 
CPUGraphicsGraphicsRAM
E5-1680v2 AMD FirePro D700 AMD FirePro D700 64GB 1866mhz 
Hard DriveOSMonitorCase
1TB PCIE SSD OSX 10.10.x Dell U2713H Mac Pro 
  hide details  
Reply
post #12 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

There are WS chips with iGPU as well.
WS chips are also ECC supported while mainstream ones aren't.

I have a feeling that intel did the math regarding pros and cons to make different manufacturing lines to CPUs with and without iGPU and they decided it is cheaper and more profitable for them to leave the iGPU on.

i think its more of a user-scenario compatibility concern.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

Well won't that require dedicated cores to run the GPU commands under hardware, unless you want to run GPU commands on software which is a hell of a lot less efficient.
So in that case, there you go. The iGPU is basically the cores needed to run the OpenCL on the CPU.
i wonder about that, do we even need a gigantic iGPU just to support OpenCL?
plus it could be said that the iGPU could be stripped to function only as a compute accelerator, which is simpler and smaller.

or on the other hand, theres OpenCL FPGA, its already available on intel-altera chips so its not impossible, with ASIC slave units it could be made cheaper and faster.
edit: this reminded me of structured ASIC, i wonder what happened to that one.



on a side note, shouldn't they start making dedicated GPUs?
they've been scaling their GPUs up so much these days, to the point that the CPU's shared TDP is affecting their potential.
Edited by epic1337 - 8/30/16 at 8:50am
post #13 of 75
50% die space for iGPU!!! Which almost no one uses! They should dedicate 70% die space for CPU and the rest 30% for iGPU.
3rd gaming setup
(17 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
G3258 ASRock H81 Pro BTC AMD Radeon RX 460 Dynet 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Seagate Seagate Sony Cooler Master TX3 EVO 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 7 Ultimate Samsung SyncMaster Zenith Bullzer 450W 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
ATX Microsoft Mobile Mouse 1000 n/a Realtek 
Other
Bose Companion 3 Series ii 
  hide details  
Reply
3rd gaming setup
(17 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
G3258 ASRock H81 Pro BTC AMD Radeon RX 460 Dynet 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Seagate Seagate Sony Cooler Master TX3 EVO 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 7 Ultimate Samsung SyncMaster Zenith Bullzer 450W 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
ATX Microsoft Mobile Mouse 1000 n/a Realtek 
Other
Bose Companion 3 Series ii 
  hide details  
Reply
post #14 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

cant we have an SKU without that IGP? the dieshot itself shows that the IGP takes up nearly half of the die size.
even if they priced it just ~30% cheaper instead of half, we'd still benefit from the much lower price per unit.
furthermore Intel would gain more profit margin per die. (50% reduction in die size, 30% reduction in retail price, 40% more profit margin)

Yes, it's called Kaby Lake-E and will be available on X190 and LGA-2066 or whatever is planned. wink.gif There are a few chips with the GPU lasered off but none are unlocked. That is something I like about AMD, that they sell unlocked Athlons - APUs with the GPU disabled - for very good prices compared to the APU.

As for making a dedicated consumer die? Nah, won't happen. Too many PCs ship with integrated graphics (and in fact for every GPU AMD and Nvidia combined sell, Intel sells two) and really, having dedicated iGPU-less dies would just make it slightly more complicated, both for people building their own systems and for OEMs buying the things. The money saved wouldn't be worth the additional complexity in the supply and demand. And anyway, there are a few GPU-accelerated tasks that can be done. QuickSync is used... Ya know, occasionally. But you need a GPU to do it in the first place.
Triumvirate
(20 items)
 
Osmium
(8 items)
 
For Sale: [FS] Z97 system: Xeon and RAM
$160 (USD) or best offer
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
i7-5775C ASUS Sabertooth Z97 Mark 2 Sapphire RX 480 (reference) MSI Low-Profile 750Ti 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Corsair Dominator Platinum - 2x8GB Crucial M500 - 960GB Samsung 840 - 250GB WD Scorpio Blue - 1TB 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingOS
ADATA SP900 - 64GB Scythe BIG Shuriken 2 Rev. B PNY Quadro 600 blower Windows 10 
MonitorMonitorMonitorKeyboard
ASUS VE247H - 1080p Gateway FPD1960 - 1280x1024 Samsung S20D300 - 900p, portrait Rosewill RK9000I - Cherry MX Blue 
PowerCaseMouseOther
Rosewill HIVE 650W Riotoro CR1080 SteelSeries Rival 100 CyberPower 1500PFCLCD 
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
AMD A10-7870K ASRock FM2A88X-ITX+ G.Skill Ripjaws X - 2x4GB @ 2400MT/s Samsung 840 120GB 
CoolingOSPowerCase
Evercool EC-HPS-810CP Windows 7 Pro 64-bit PicoPSU-120-WI-25 Mini-Box M350 
  hide details  
Reply
Triumvirate
(20 items)
 
Osmium
(8 items)
 
For Sale: [FS] Z97 system: Xeon and RAM
$160 (USD) or best offer
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
i7-5775C ASUS Sabertooth Z97 Mark 2 Sapphire RX 480 (reference) MSI Low-Profile 750Ti 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Corsair Dominator Platinum - 2x8GB Crucial M500 - 960GB Samsung 840 - 250GB WD Scorpio Blue - 1TB 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingOS
ADATA SP900 - 64GB Scythe BIG Shuriken 2 Rev. B PNY Quadro 600 blower Windows 10 
MonitorMonitorMonitorKeyboard
ASUS VE247H - 1080p Gateway FPD1960 - 1280x1024 Samsung S20D300 - 900p, portrait Rosewill RK9000I - Cherry MX Blue 
PowerCaseMouseOther
Rosewill HIVE 650W Riotoro CR1080 SteelSeries Rival 100 CyberPower 1500PFCLCD 
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
AMD A10-7870K ASRock FM2A88X-ITX+ G.Skill Ripjaws X - 2x4GB @ 2400MT/s Samsung 840 120GB 
CoolingOSPowerCase
Evercool EC-HPS-810CP Windows 7 Pro 64-bit PicoPSU-120-WI-25 Mini-Box M350 
  hide details  
Reply
post #15 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by sepiashimmer View Post

50% die space for iGPU!!! Which almost no one uses! They should dedicate 70% die space for CPU and the rest 30% for iGPU.

Once you move away from OCN, you'll find that the vast majority of computers use only the iGPU. They make such large iGPUs because the market demands them (they could save a lot of manufacturing cost by eliminating them if they weren't needed). The vast majority of computer users aren't willing to pay for dedicated GPUs and this is way better than old chipset GPUs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

i think its more of a user-scenario compatibility concern.
i wonder about that, do we even need a gigantic iGPU just to support OpenCL?
plus it could be said that the iGPU could be stripped to function only as a compute accelerator, which is simpler and smaller.

or on the other hand, theres OpenCL FPGA, its already available on intel-altera chips so its not impossible, with ASIC slave units it could be made cheaper and faster.
edit: this reminded me of structured ASIC, i wonder what happened to that one.

on a side note, shouldn't they start making dedicated GPUs?
they've been scaling their GPUs up so much these days, to the point that the CPU's shared TDP is affecting their potential.

You can technically run OpenCL via CPU emulation, but the cost makes it unusable (even a small GPU has far greater performance while using much less power). A dedicated OpenCL processor unit would be a bit smaller than a GPU, but without being able to be used as a GPU effectively making it unmarketable outside of servers.

There's another aspect of the GPU though in that getting rid of the GPU wouldn't increase maximum clockspeed in any meaningful way. The limiting factor today is almost entirely the fabrication process and removing the GPU wouldn't meaningfully increase the max clock headroom. The only time the iGPU significantly impacts CPU speed is when it's used. If you only have an iGPU, then this is expected and offers a better experience over really crappy chipset graphics. If you run a dedicated GPU, then it power gates, so there's still not much of a TDP difference. If you have a large cooler and are pushing the TDP already, the difference isn't that much.

This leaves die area. If the chip remained the same size, you'd see some benefit from lots of cache, but it would always be on (which would affect clockspeeds). You could make the die smaller and make more chips, but that may not decrease cost due to supply/demand (eg, ARM SoCs are as big or bigger than Intel chips and do more stuff, but cost less). Some servers care about the iGPU because the ever-so-slight decrease in TDP (and elimination of GPU concerns in the OS/drivers) saves them money over the decade they plan on using the chip for (there may also be some slight reliability boosts too, but I don't know). I'd actually bet that these chips may cost a little less because they are chips with iGPUs that failed inspection, so they laser out the iGPU and sell to increase yields.

EDIT: As to Intel making dedicated GPUs, they would have a bit of a hard time there. The competition in the GPU market is strong. ARM, Qualcomm, Imagination Technologies, AMD, Nvidia, Vivante, Broadcomm, etc. Intel couldn't bundle their GPUs without anti-trust actions being taken and they couldn't compete on marketing. In the low end they'd be eaten by literally everyone else. In the top-end, they may not be permitted to depending on their cross-licensing agreements with AMD and Nvidia.

More specifically, Nvidia's bought Transmeta IP which emulated the x86 ISA on it's own architecture in an attempt to get around patents. Project Denver was probably the real reason Intel sued Nvidia. They struck a cross-license agreement where Nvidia agreed not to make x86 CPUs and drop their chipsets/chipset GPU business and Intel agreed to license Nvidia patents. That's very much in Intel's favor unless they inked in somewhere that Intel can't compete in non-integrated graphics processors. I'd imagine the direct results of this were larger iGPUs by Intel, switching the Denver microcode to interpret ARMv7-8 and Intel skipped the graphics market to go straight for GPGPU by pushing Larrabee even harder culminating in the Xeon Phi.
Edited by hajile - 8/30/16 at 10:30am
post #16 of 75
I'm not saying eliminate the iGPU completely, just reduce the die space. If they used 20% space from iGPU, they could have fit two additional CPU cores. The remaining 30% iGPU will still be more than enough for browsing, video playback and some light gaming. It's not like Intel is putting Iris Pro or some such iGPU in that 50% space.
3rd gaming setup
(17 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
G3258 ASRock H81 Pro BTC AMD Radeon RX 460 Dynet 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Seagate Seagate Sony Cooler Master TX3 EVO 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 7 Ultimate Samsung SyncMaster Zenith Bullzer 450W 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
ATX Microsoft Mobile Mouse 1000 n/a Realtek 
Other
Bose Companion 3 Series ii 
  hide details  
Reply
3rd gaming setup
(17 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
G3258 ASRock H81 Pro BTC AMD Radeon RX 460 Dynet 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Seagate Seagate Sony Cooler Master TX3 EVO 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 7 Ultimate Samsung SyncMaster Zenith Bullzer 450W 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
ATX Microsoft Mobile Mouse 1000 n/a Realtek 
Other
Bose Companion 3 Series ii 
  hide details  
Reply
post #17 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by sepiashimmer View Post

50% die space for iGPU!!! Which almost no one uses! They should dedicate 70% die space for CPU and the rest 30% for iGPU.

iGP is staying and may even get bigger, why? Because you people don't get that these mainstream chips are made for laptops and your glorious 6700K chips(and mine) are just 6700HQs that failed at low power binning.
Skylake 1080 FTW
(18 items)
 
XPS 15
(7 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7-6700K  ASUS Maximus VIII Ranger EVGA 1080 FTW TridentZ DDR4-3000 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Samsung SM951 128GB Samsung 840 Pro 256 GB Muskin Reactor 1TB Seagate Baracuda 2TB ST2000DM001 HDD 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Seagate Baracuda 2TB ST2000DM001 HDD Corsair H110i GT Windows 10 Pro  Acer XB321HK 32" 4K G-sync 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Corsair K70 Rapid Fire EVGA SuperNova 650 P2 NZXT H440 Black Logitech G900  
Mouse PadOther
Razer Vespula CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD - PFC Sinewave UPS Syst... 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7-7700HQ 2.8Ghz(3.8Ghz Turbo) Dell XPS 15-9560 Nvidia GTX 1050 8GB DDR4-2400 
Hard DriveOSMonitor
256GB PCIE SSD Windows 10 Pro 15.6" 1080p 
  hide details  
Reply
Skylake 1080 FTW
(18 items)
 
XPS 15
(7 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7-6700K  ASUS Maximus VIII Ranger EVGA 1080 FTW TridentZ DDR4-3000 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Samsung SM951 128GB Samsung 840 Pro 256 GB Muskin Reactor 1TB Seagate Baracuda 2TB ST2000DM001 HDD 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Seagate Baracuda 2TB ST2000DM001 HDD Corsair H110i GT Windows 10 Pro  Acer XB321HK 32" 4K G-sync 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Corsair K70 Rapid Fire EVGA SuperNova 650 P2 NZXT H440 Black Logitech G900  
Mouse PadOther
Razer Vespula CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD - PFC Sinewave UPS Syst... 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7-7700HQ 2.8Ghz(3.8Ghz Turbo) Dell XPS 15-9560 Nvidia GTX 1050 8GB DDR4-2400 
Hard DriveOSMonitor
256GB PCIE SSD Windows 10 Pro 15.6" 1080p 
  hide details  
Reply
post #18 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by sepiashimmer View Post

I'm not saying eliminate the iGPU completely, just reduce the die space. If they used 20% space from iGPU, they could have fit two additional CPU cores. The remaining 30% iGPU will still be more than enough for browsing, video playback and some light gaming. It's not like Intel is putting Iris Pro or some such iGPU in that 50% space.

I know when my laptop switches from the Iris GPU to the AMD one because the fans kick up and the battery is dead in no time at all. I like having the option, but I want to be able to do moderately GPU intensive stuff while on the go.

Let's say that the iGPU is reduced though. What would you do with those extra CPU cores? Bulldozer proved very clearly that consumer software can't take advantage of lots of cores. Typical users won't see too much of an increase moving from two to four KL cores (and 4 cores is a no-go because x86 cores may be small, but they use the majority of power in that little die area). Going from 4 to 6 KL cores offers almost zero performance increase for basically every consumer application. If you are in a field that needs more cores, then Intel already offers outrageously priced CPUs to handle your needs.

I like the idea of Intel going with ARM's BIG.little approach. Pairing two large KL cores with 2-4 atom-ish cores (but with the same instruction support as KL) could net good power savings, but in such integrated environments, you still need a decent iGPU because a dedicated core won't fit.
post #19 of 75
Well 860K was a lot cheaper then 7850K because it no GPU. Intel can do the same thing.
Ishimura
(21 items)
 
Silent Knight
(13 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i7 3770K @ 4.6GHz ASRock Z77E-ITX eVGA GTX 1080 Ti Hybrid AVEXIR Blitz 1.1 16GB DDR3-2400MHz CL10 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingCooling
SanDisk Ultra II 960GB Toshiba X300 5TB Corsair H100i GTX eVGA Hybrid Water Cooler  
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
4x GentleTyphoon AP-15 Windows 10 Pro 64-Bit Philips Brilliance BDM4065UC 4K Razer BlackWidow Chroma  
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
eVGA SuperNOVA 750 G3 Define Nano S Logitech G502 Proteus Core PECHAM Gaming Mouse Pad XX-Large 
AudioAudioAudioAudio
Audioengine D1 DAC Mackie CR Series CR3 Audio-Technica ATH-M50 Sennheiser HD 598 
Audio
Sony XB950BT 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD Phenom II X4 955 @ 4.2GHz ASUS M4A79XTD EVO AMD Radeon HD 7970 3GB @ 1200/1500 2x 4GB G.SKILL Ripjaws X DDR3-1600 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
OCZ Agility 3 60GB WD Caviar Green 1.5TB 2 x Seagate Barracuda 2TB XSPC Raystorm 
CoolingCoolingOSPower
EK-FC7970 XSPC RS360 Windows 10 Pro 64-Bit Corsair TX750 
Case
NZXT Switch 810  
  hide details  
Reply
Ishimura
(21 items)
 
Silent Knight
(13 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i7 3770K @ 4.6GHz ASRock Z77E-ITX eVGA GTX 1080 Ti Hybrid AVEXIR Blitz 1.1 16GB DDR3-2400MHz CL10 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingCooling
SanDisk Ultra II 960GB Toshiba X300 5TB Corsair H100i GTX eVGA Hybrid Water Cooler  
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
4x GentleTyphoon AP-15 Windows 10 Pro 64-Bit Philips Brilliance BDM4065UC 4K Razer BlackWidow Chroma  
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
eVGA SuperNOVA 750 G3 Define Nano S Logitech G502 Proteus Core PECHAM Gaming Mouse Pad XX-Large 
AudioAudioAudioAudio
Audioengine D1 DAC Mackie CR Series CR3 Audio-Technica ATH-M50 Sennheiser HD 598 
Audio
Sony XB950BT 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD Phenom II X4 955 @ 4.2GHz ASUS M4A79XTD EVO AMD Radeon HD 7970 3GB @ 1200/1500 2x 4GB G.SKILL Ripjaws X DDR3-1600 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
OCZ Agility 3 60GB WD Caviar Green 1.5TB 2 x Seagate Barracuda 2TB XSPC Raystorm 
CoolingCoolingOSPower
EK-FC7970 XSPC RS360 Windows 10 Pro 64-Bit Corsair TX750 
Case
NZXT Switch 810  
  hide details  
Reply
post #20 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by sherlock View Post

iGP is staying and may even get bigger, why? Because you people don't get that these mainstream chips are made for laptops and your glorious 6700K chips(and mine) are just 6700HQs that failed at low power binning.

I would have liked that iGPU if it was Iris Pro or something like that, but it's a very low end one. Since PS3 era I upgrade my internal computer parts to $300 for that gaming generation, so I'll never consider i7 6700K, etc. If you checked the system in my signature, you'd find that I don't have 6700K. Extra CPU cores will percolate down to value segments like Pentium and Celeron, so I'll benefit from them. As a consumer, you shouldn't be explaining Intel's decisions and defending them.
3rd gaming setup
(17 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
G3258 ASRock H81 Pro BTC AMD Radeon RX 460 Dynet 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Seagate Seagate Sony Cooler Master TX3 EVO 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 7 Ultimate Samsung SyncMaster Zenith Bullzer 450W 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
ATX Microsoft Mobile Mouse 1000 n/a Realtek 
Other
Bose Companion 3 Series ii 
  hide details  
Reply
3rd gaming setup
(17 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
G3258 ASRock H81 Pro BTC AMD Radeon RX 460 Dynet 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Seagate Seagate Sony Cooler Master TX3 EVO 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 7 Ultimate Samsung SyncMaster Zenith Bullzer 450W 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
ATX Microsoft Mobile Mouse 1000 n/a Realtek 
Other
Bose Companion 3 Series ii 
  hide details  
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Hardware News
Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Hardware News › [TH]Intel Kaby Lake: 14nm+, Higher Clocks, New Media Engine