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[TH]Intel Kaby Lake: 14nm+, Higher Clocks, New Media Engine - Page 7

post #61 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

they've got dozens of SKUs if you include the E7, E5 and EX chips, whats one more SKU on the table really? i don't think its literally "hundred millions of USD" per additional SKU.

There are only a handful of Skylake die configurations, each one goes into scads of SKUs, and each one is a big deal from a manufacturing standpoint.

None of the current dies lack IGPs and to make a sixth without an IGP would be a major retooling that would cost more than could possibly be saved from cutting five dollars of wafer area off a core that would go into parts that would make up a tiny portion of sales that would then have to compete with the rest of their SKUs.

Skylake die/package configurations:


Actual pictures of three different packages showing at least three different CPU dies:
002.jpg

Leftmost is the BGA 1356 package with a 2+3e die configuration plus the platfom I/O. Second from left is also BGA 1356, but this time a 2+2 die configuration also with the platform I/O, but no eDRAM die this time. Third from left is BGA 1440 4+2 die configuration; no eDRAM and no platform I/O because it connects to an off-package chipset. Rightmost part is a desktop LGA-1151 package, which could use either the 2+2, or the 4+2 die.

You can clearly see that the CPU dies shown are not the same size, and that the 4+4 die must be larger than any of them. So, Intel is manufacturing at least four, and probably five (the S-series 2+2 die is different from the others because it connects to a different platform), basic Skylake variants, without cutting down any parts...just as the slide implies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

wait, are you expecting that every 4+4e dies are a perfect whole? my hypothesis is that defective 4+4e dies are cutdown to 4+2 and further without the eDRAM.

Each die configuration is exactly that...different parts with different die sizes. There are certainly defective 4+4e dies, but no where near enough to account for all the 4+2 parts, which is a separate die config, not a harvested part.

Given how mature Intel's 14nm process is, how small these parts are, and how high resulting yields must be, combined with the unpredictable location of defects, the small number of defective parts that could be harvested are probably just thrown out, rather than re-binned then packaged for non-standard configurations of certain SKUs.
Edited by Blameless - 8/31/16 at 12:08am
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post #62 of 75
I think an igpu-less 6 core design for the 4 core+igpu similar price is a reasonable expectation.
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post #63 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

There are only a handful of Skylake die configurations, each one goes into scads of SKUs, and each one is a big deal from a manufacturing standpoint.

None of the current dies lack IGPs and to make a sixth without an IGP would be a major retooling that would cost more than could possibly be saved from cutting five dollars of wafer area off a core that would go into parts that would make up a tiny portion of sales that would then have to compete with the rest of their SKUs.

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Skylake die/package configurations:


Actual pictures of three different packages showing at least three different CPU dies:
002.jpg

Leftmost is the BGA 1356 package with a 2+3e die configuration plus the platfom I/O. Second from left is also BGA 1356, but this time a 2+2 die configuration also with the platform I/O, but no eDRAM die this time. Third from left is BGA 1440 4+2 die configuration; no eDRAM and no platform I/O because it connects to an off-package chipset. Rightmost part is a desktop LGA-1151 package, which could use either the 2+2, or the 4+2 die.

You can clearly see that the CPU dies shown are not the same size, and that the 4+4 die must be larger than any of them. So, Intel is manufacturing at least four, and probably five (the S-series 2+2 die is different from the others because it connects to a different platform), basic Skylake variants, without cutting down any parts...just as the slide implies.

Each die configuration is exactly that...different parts with different die sizes. There are certainly defective 4+4e dies, but no where near enough to account for all the 4+2 parts, which is a separate die config, not a harvested part.

Given how mature Intel's 14nm process is, how small these parts are, and how high resulting yields must be, combined with the unpredictable location of defects, the small number of defective parts that could be harvested are probably just thrown out, rather than re-binned then packaged for non-standard configurations of certain SKUs.

of course theres no E7, E5 and EX skylake chips yet, they've just recently released their broadwell chips.
but once you factor in those chips along with the existing skylake chips, you get much more SKUs than "a handful".


i'm not saying that all 4+2 mobile chips are cutdown 4+4e chips, i'm saying that some of them are based off defective 4+4e chips.
ummm, you remember that skylake had been postponed a bit due to yield issues right?
saying that their yields are high enough to just throw defective units... how do i say this in such a way that greatly exaggerates "throwing away a $600 chip is the most ridiculous idea ever".
Edited by epic1337 - 8/31/16 at 1:06am
post #64 of 75
Freesync supported yet?
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post #65 of 75
Any info on the new media engine? I could use a better hardware encoder in my machine.
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post #66 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

of course theres no E7, E5 and EX skylake chips yet, they've just recently released their broadwell chips.

Skylake-E/EP will likely add three more die flavors that will cover every SKU for their socket.
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

but once you factor in those chips along with the existing skylake chips, you get much more SKUs than "a handful".

They don't exist yet, and they were never slated to be equipped with IGPs, so they have little bearing on this discussion.

Some of the E/EP parts are almost certainly die harvested, mostly because there are only three dies and many more variants in core count. More cores means more ways to harvest a die, larger die sizes mean lower yields, and more variety in SKUs mean that there is a much higher likelihood of a defective part having somewhere to go. Still, parts of one die type almost certainly aren't making it into SKUs (other than engineering samples) made from another die type.
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

i'm not saying that all 4+2 mobile chips are cutdown 4+4e chips, i'm saying that some of them are based off defective 4+4e chips.
ummm, you remember that skylake had been postponed a bit due to yield issues right? saying that their yields are high enough to just throw defective units...

I can't categorically rule out die harvesting of this part..

The 4+4 die can only be used on BGA 1440 (it doesn't fit on LGA-1151, and doesn't have the I/O for BGA 1515 or BGA 1356) and will only be useful for harvesting if there is a shortfall of 4+2 BGA 1440 dies severe enough to justify the die harvesting process.

Of course, if someone has a traditionally 4+2 SKU that actually has the 4+4 die, that would be proof positive of die-harvesting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brucethemoose View Post

Any info on the new media engine? I could use a better hardware encoder in my machine.

The slides I've seen don't go into huge detail, but Kaby Lake does have 10-bit HEVC encoding at up to 4k and the higher end IGPs should be able to handle 4kp60 in real-time.
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post #67 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

They don't exist yet, and they were never slated to be equipped with IGPs, so they have little bearing on this discussion.

Some of the E/EP parts are almost certainly die harvested, mostly because there are only three dies and many more variants in core count. More cores means more ways to harvest a die, larger die sizes mean lower yields, and more variety in SKUs mean that there is a much higher likelihood of a defective part having somewhere to go. Still, parts of one die type almost certainly aren't making it into SKUs (other than engineering samples) made from another die type.

they do have some relevance, that is these chips were designed to have no IGP at all so its not unlikely that its a practical approach.
coincidentally, we have LGA2011 for that spot, but its on a much higher premium for the platform itself but still much cheaper than E5 server platforms.
to forward that point, that type of chip could also be said to be relevant even if it was of a lower entry point, in this case the mainstream platform.
as of this time, those who do have use for 6~10core chips, but has no use for 4channels of DRAM, 28~40lanes of PCIe, and so on, would have to pay a bit more for their worth.


i think the concern here would end up being a 6core iGPU-less processor on the mainstream platform would cannibalize the enthusiast platform, even on the server side.
although theres one point to this case which could simplify this perspective, that is to say the enthusiast platform's core config had excessively gave a massive gap between the mainstream.
e.g. mainstream platform being stuck at 4cores, where as the enthusiast platform has access to 16~32core chips, and they no longer release 6~8core chips due to no such yields.

as for power consumption issues regarding 6~8core chips on the mainstream platform.
with the current 14nm node and architecture, making an 8core chip run within 95W without sacrificing too much performance is possible.
Edited by epic1337 - 8/31/16 at 2:35am
post #68 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

they do have some relevance, that is these chips were designed to have no IGP at all so its not unlikely that its not a practical approach.

It's a practical approach, if there is sufficient demand. For mobile and mainstream desktops, there isn't.

I know some enthusiasts want them, but the number of people who want hex cores with no IGP and aren't content to buy an HEDT setup has to be pretty small.
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

i think the concern here would end up being a 6core iGPU-less processor on the mainstream platform would cannibalize the enthusiast platform, even on the server side.

That is the other reason I don't expect to see them until 10nm at the earliest and why I expect Intel to retire 6-core HEDT within a generation of hex cores on mainstream platforms.
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post #69 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

It's a practical approach, if there is sufficient demand. For mobile and mainstream desktops, there isn't.

I know some enthusiasts want them, but the number of people who want hex cores with no IGP and aren't content to buy an HEDT setup has to be pretty small.
That is the other reason I don't expect to see them until 10nm at the earliest and why I expect Intel to retire 6-core HEDT within a generation of hex cores on mainstream platforms.

its to be expected for future processors, specially when binning for lower core-count chips on the enthusiast platform becomes unlikely.
but if supposedly they were to extend mainstream platform to 6~8core chips, they'll probably also include an IGP on that SKU... well i just hope they don't, or at least a smaller IGP.

a binned 6core IGP-less SKU meant for the mainstream platform would still cost quite a bit less than a processor 4core with IGP.

this is a shopped representation of a mainstream 6+0 skylake SKU, it is roughly 15% smaller.
this implies that in terms of yield per wafer, it would be a bit higher than their current 4+2 config.
so even if they price this SKU at roughly the same price of i7-6700K ($350), they would still profit more out of it.
Edited by epic1337 - 8/31/16 at 2:59am
post #70 of 75
I dont mind paying $500 for a 6 cores shown above, just bring out the mainstream 6 cores KBL with 20 lane PCIe and retire the damn 6800K or 5820K.


6850K will still be relevant due to its 40 lane PCIe support.



I am very sure they have the blueprint tested and ready for production, but they will never manufactured it until Zen seriously light their asses on fire.
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