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[USAToday] Walmart to cut 7,000 back-office accounting, invoicing jobs - Page 7

post #61 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diablosbud View Post

You're making the assumption that hiring a payroll full of robotic engineers, computer scientists, and electronics engineers, as well as having the robots manufactured will be cheaper than just employing people for a low wage. I think the main market for robotics would be in jobs that require some skill and are mainly repetitive tasks, such as production lines. Also robots aren't very versatile, humans will practically always one-up them that way (if a robot is versatile chances are it's incredibly expensive).

Anyway, what do you think will happen when these people become unemployed? If we're talking mass unemployment the government will eventually have to step in and do something. That's what I meant by economic change. You're assuming the economy will operate exactly as it does today. I highly doubt it will. When the industrial revolution happened did everyone in the world just become an unemployed farm hand?

Well costs upfront or during initial purchase or tooling may be expensive but over the long term it will generate profit as humans are made redundant. You dont have to pay salaries, have productivity drops, workers taking sick leave etc. We are in the infancy of automation, which is why versatile robots are incredibly expensive and not yet mass implemented. But when the economies of scale and technology improves, that will be when the main change will happen. Already we are seeing it in human form, albeit companies hiring foriegners to save cost. It is the last bastion before low cost robotic assembly line etc becomes monetarily feasible to implement on a wide scale. By then itll be too late.


The government? What makes you think they will step in? The corporations are bankrolling them as revro said. Its why it is becoming so widespread now.
post #62 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickyvida View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by huzzug View Post

"Gets cut" it already was cut. And that is what I did, look for a better job and build skills. What younger gen don't get is that if you worked at flipping burgers at your last job, your skill are not of flipping burgers, but can also be applied in industries where that skill gets used. You're being overtly negative about something that you have no control over
.
Its the same for all industries. No matter biomedical or aerospace, its more widespread than you think.

Whatever skills one has, no matter will be negated by automation. Its not being overtly negative. Its being realistic. Even low wage burger flippers are now under threat by automatic burger machines that can basically do the job.
Then maybe its time for them burger flippers to get more skills under their belt. If you let your ideas gets simulated the way you want to until the end, you'd find that it is in that simulation where the humanity goes back to being a caveman rather than the future where robots do the work which is of less skill and mundane.
post #63 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curleyyy View Post

Sounds comparable to hardware / software. There's always going to be one ahead and one having to catch up. Unfortunately, people are the ones who have to catch up.

I agree in a way.
Keep up with progression, or be left behind. There is not much you can do.
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post #64 of 93
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Originally Posted by Nickyvida View Post

Well costs upfront or during initial purchase or tooling may be expensive but over the long term it will generate profit as humans are made redundant. You dont have to pay salaries, have productivity drops, workers taking sick leave etc. We are in the infancy of automation, which is why versatile robots are incredibly expensive and not yet mass implemented. But when the economies of scale and technology improves, that will be when the main change will happen. Already we are seeing it in human form, albeit companies hiring foriegners to save cost. It is the last bastion before low cost robotic assembly line etc becomes monetarily feasible to implement on a wide scale. By then itll be too late.


The government? What makes you think they will step in? The corporations are bankrolling them as revro said. Its why it is becoming so widespread now.
Their profits are coming from humans, if people have no money to spend on their goods, then they aren't going to be getting any revenue. They depend on us as much as we depend on them.

I don't think automation will ever necessarily be cheap, a lot cheaper than now sure, but it requires a lot of intelligent workers and expensive materials to keep robots running. Both intelligence and expensive materials will always remain expensive, despite technological breakthroughs.

If that many people are unemployed and as rage filled as you are about automation, I think they could force the government to give them a living wage. But I don't think robotics and automation will be as widespread as people fear, so I don't think it'll come to that. I'm not necessarily for automation, but I'm not against it either. It's efficiency is good for society on paper, but not if large corporations abuse it.
 
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post #65 of 93
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Originally Posted by huzzug View Post

Then maybe its time for them burger flippers to get more skills under their belt. If you let your ideas gets simulated the way you want to until the end, you'd find that it is in that simulation where the humanity goes back to being a caveman rather than the future where robots do the work which is of less skill and mundane.

Well people always take the high ground until what they have been campaigning against comes to pass. Humanity wont go back into a cavemen just because we employ humans to do tasks.
You are just painting an unrealistic futuristic utopia where humans and robots can coexist. Yes. But at a very painful cost
post #66 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diablosbud View Post

Their profits are coming from humans, if people have no money to spend on their goods, then they aren't going to be getting any revenue. They depend on us as much as we depend on them.

I don't think automation will ever necessarily be cheap, a lot cheaper than now sure, but it requires a lot of intelligent workers and expensive materials to keep robots running. Both intelligence and expensive materials will always remain expensive, despite technological breakthroughs.

If that many people are unemployed and as rage filled as you are about automation, I think they could force the government to give them a living wage. But I don't think robotics and automation will be as widespread as people fear, so I don't think it'll come to that. I'm not necessarily for automation, but I'm not against it either. It's efficiency is good for society on paper, but not if large corporations abuse it.

They still have the high income groups (ie robot programmers and robotic repair) which i suspect will be thier main source of income. Many will have to switch to that or accept reduced roles. Corporations dont depend on us as much as you like to believe.

Cars were a rarity and expensive back in the early 1900s. But now today they can be had for as little as 5 grand. The same thing will happen eventually. Mass production will take care of the costs and it will be implemented on a wide scale to save costs. Its already happening like factory lines etc.


As as for unhappy people, i dont think its going to pan out exactly the way you think it will happen. The day has long gone where the government was elected for the people.
post #67 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickyvida View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by huzzug View Post

Then maybe its time for them burger flippers to get more skills under their belt. If you let your ideas gets simulated the way you want to until the end, you'd find that it is in that simulation where the humanity goes back to being a caveman rather than the future where robots do the work which is of less skill and mundane.

Well people always take the high ground until what they have been campaigning against comes to pass. Humanity wont go back into a cavemen just because we employ humans to do tasks.
You are just painting an unrealistic futuristic utopia where humans and robots can coexist. Yes. But at a very painful cost
And how can you be so confident to say that what you're try to say is not the same.
post #68 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickyvida View Post

Tell that to the masses of university graduates who cant find a job as companies hire third rate people to save cost. Its not about improving oneself. Its about the greedy nature of companies

Id love to see you look back on this post when your job gets cut by automation.

At my company we are taking the time to hire only good people because third rate people cost the company more than they make it. If your job is such that third rate people can do it more cost effectively than you can then you didn't want to do it anyway. tongue.gif

Complaining about automation is missing the point, it is like complaining about the government when it is corporations that are the issue.

There are issues with socity and the way profit is divided up, owning is given too much weight over working. This is a societal problem though, not a technological one. Automation is not part of the problem, but it does enable the problem to become even more evident. With automation people will have to change what they do for work but there will always be useful work for them to do. Entertainment is a big industry, what people do does not need to actually produce anything physical to be valuable to our socity, we are well past the "everyone needs to work so we can all eat this winter" stage as a socity.

We need to change society so we value human talent and creativity, if we have robots doing a lot of work those who own them shouldn't be the only beneficiaries of that work. Capital is much less important now, capital can quickly and easily move across borders to where it is needed (e.g. can make the most return). People on the other hand have more trouble moving. Why does our socity skew everything (like the tax code) to benefit capital over work?

I will never understand why someone working 9 to 5 pays a higher percentage of their income as taxes than someone who simply owns the plant they were working at and was playing golf the entire time.

T.L.D.R Automation isn't the problem, basic societal assumptions are.
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post #69 of 93
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Originally Posted by huzzug View Post

Then maybe its time for them burger flippers to get more skills under their belt. .

This seems to be common advice. I largely agree with it for individual cases but it is not clear to me how well it scales. If automation eliminates 50% of the jobs, will the remaining professions be able to absorb that many people.

Also, the trend of greater education is a bit alarming. It seems like that in 30 years people will need a PhD for an entry level job.
post #70 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

Hold on. In the next 10-15 years, self learning automated systems will take place which allows databases to self learn usage and improve usability on its own.
IBM are working on it for several years now and I attended a web conference where they explained how it is done and what they plan for the future.

The ones I see most to secure their jobs are network engineers, and system engineers, since servers will always go "poof" and network hardware improves (and fails).

I understand the scalable usage scenarios, but the thing that computers cannot do is tailor the systems usage to their own specifications, error correct at a code level, and anticipate usage issues that may crop up from time to time. The reason the IT industry exists is because imperfect humans create imperfect machines. This isn't changing. As computers get more and more complex, so does the maintenance and upkeep of those systems.

When a computer has the ability to self-identify problems and correct them on their own at a code level, we've got way more problems than putting people out of jobs. At that point, we will be on the brink of self-aware Artificial Intelligence.

Our processors now have billions of transistors by themselves, and that's not including computers that have multiple processors in the same system. Those processors are not perfect, no matter how incredible they may be from an engineering perspective. As long as that is true, the IT and database analysis/maintenance industry will continue to thrive.
Edited by Mad Pistol - 9/4/16 at 11:06am
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