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[ARSTechnica] ISP explains data caps to FCC: Using the Internet is like eating Oreos - Page 12  

post #111 of 155
The following commentary is my personal opinion which runs counter to the beliefs of most of the people on this site. Don't read it if you are going to get all offended and call me a troll. You've been warned:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Its not up to us consumers to decide how much profit a private business is allowed to make, other than by using the our power to refuse their products/services. And these claims of 0 production costs for data that people keep making conveniently forget all about the massive overhead these ISP's incur in terms of labor force and maintenance costs. You think your internet just magically gets re-connected after a storm outage in half an hour? I understand that the issue is unlimited service and not the service itself but, again, see the first point in this post. If they want to arbitrarily impose data caps for whatever reason, they are well within their rights to do so. People just think because they want to use 10TB of data a month (to play games or post video of their weekend shenanigans on social media) that the ISP's have an obligation to provide it to them free of charge because in today's entitlement society everything under the sun is considered a "right" or "necessity" any more.

All that said, I am very fortunate that Comcast (yes, that evil Comcast that gets castigated in all of these threads) does not impose a data cap on me at all. I suspect that is the case for the vast majority of Americans, at least when it comes to cable internet. Do I wish that all internet was uncapped? As a consumer, of course I do! That doesn't mean I think its a right that ISP's should be required to provide free of charge.

Edited by Majin SSJ Eric - 9/27/16 at 8:54pm
post #112 of 155
it's unfortunate that the free market can't just run these dinosaurs over with unfettered competition...

as an anecdote here is a list of isp's suing google or municipalities that want Google fiber.

AT&T suing lousville because they want google fiber

AT&T suing Nashville because they want googl fiber

google fiber was not allowed to use AT&T poles in Austin texas because "Google wasn't a "qualified" telecom or cable provider." despite US wide agreement

google fiber was delayed in nashville because you guessed it AT&T was holding up things.

but then AT&T sued nashville.

Cox Communications has filed a lawsuit against Tempe, Arizona, seeking to invalidate new rules designed to bring Google Fiber to the city.

one of my favourites Comcast sued a city trying to build high-speed internet — then offered its own version

and it goes on...

nothing like a cartel to keep prices high and competition to a minimum.
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post #113 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master__Shake View Post

it's unfortunate that the free market can't just run these dinosaurs over with unfettered competition...

as an anecdote here is a list of isp's suing google or municipalities that want Google fiber.

AT&T suing lousville because they want google fiber

AT&T suing Nashville because they want googl fiber

google fiber was not allowed to use AT&T poles in Austin texas because "Google wasn't a "qualified" telecom or cable provider." despite US wide agreement

google fiber was delayed in nashville because you guessed it AT&T was holding up things.

but then AT&T sued nashville.

Cox Communications has filed a lawsuit against Tempe, Arizona, seeking to invalidate new rules designed to bring Google Fiber to the city.

one of my favourites Comcast sued a city trying to build high-speed internet — then offered its own version

and it goes on...

nothing like a cartel to keep prices high and competition to a minimum.




While I am a mostly free market libertarian, the thing is when you let the free market run loose without ANY regulation businesses tend to monopolize and consolidate power. The last time we had 0 regulation and corruption to this magnitude was the late 19th and early 20th century.
 
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post #114 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkpriest667 View Post

While I am a mostly free market libertarian, the thing is when you let the free market run loose without ANY regulation businesses tend to monopolize and consolidate power. The last time we had 0 regulation and corruption to this magnitude was the late 19th and early 20th century.

we need another Teddy Roosevelt to fix it.
 
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post #115 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

So obviously it should be free then? Interesting logic there...

Each additional bit of data should be free, yes.

Using the Internet is not like eating Oreos. You're not consuming something when you watch something on Netflix. Yes you should pay for the service, but what you should pay for should be commensurate with what the service is actually providing. You should pay for access, and you should pay for speed. But you shouldn't pay per bit, because the ISP's costs don't increase per bit.
post #116 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master__Shake View Post

why don't they just come out and say it.

we have data caps because we sell cable too and netflix is hurting our old antiquated cable tv business model.

Exactly this.

I have said before that I would rather pay 3x as much per channel and get to pick EACH channel, rather than buy packages in tiers where I get 100 channels basic (maybe 10 I'll watch), +30 on the next teir (2 more I'll watch), +30 on the next tier, (Here are were most of my channels are).

So in the end I'm paying $150-200/month for "1000" channels. Where 400 are music only (yet I have Pandora), and half of what's left is the "FREE HD" version of the of the other half. It's 2016, I'm not gonna paying for Standard Definition. HD is not a freebie, it's the whole point. So all said and done there is 300 television channels and 270 will never have anything I want to watch.

But Netflix does.
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post #117 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

The following commentary is my personal opinion which runs counter to the beliefs of most of the people on this site. Don't read it if you are going to get all offended and call me a troll. You've been warned:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Its not up to us consumers to decide how much profit a private business is allowed to make, other than by using the our power to refuse their products/services. And these claims of 0 production costs for data that people keep making conveniently forget all about the massive overhead these ISP's incur in terms of labor force and maintenance costs. You think your internet just magically gets re-connected after a storm outage in half an hour? I understand that the issue is unlimited service and not the service itself but, again, see the first point in this post. If they want to arbitrarily impose data caps for whatever reason, they are well within their rights to do so. People just think because they want to use 10TB of data a month (to play games or post video of their weekend shenanigans on social media) that the ISP's have an obligation to provide it to them free of charge because in today's entitlement society everything under the sun is considered a "right" or "necessity" any more.

All that said, I am very fortunate that Comcast (yes, that evil Comcast that gets castigated in all of these threads) does not impose a data cap on me at all. I suspect that is the case for the vast majority of Americans, at least when it comes to cable internet. Do I wish that all internet was uncapped? As a consumer, of course I do! That doesn't mean I think its a right that ISP's should be required to provide free of charge.

Here's where I feel is a flaw of your argument. We aren't getting free internet access. We're paying ISP's a monthly subscription fee. Isn't the point of the monthly subscription fee to cover the cost maintenance required for timely fixes and consistent up time?

Why do we need to then pay to use the thing we already paid for?
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post #118 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by serothis View Post

Why do we need to then pay to use the thing we already paid for?
post #119 of 155
*sigh* Just more smoke blowing... And in response to the closing paragraph about internet at a fixed rate, they do this stuff all over the world (not in all countries, but I have certainly seen it), but American companies can't seem to wrap their heads around it.

I just don't understand the data caps. You have the users like your parents or grandparents for example who might use 500MB of data a month to check emails and Google stuff. Therefore it seems to create a magical 'surplus' of data that this user has to pay for. You also have users who run businesses from home, and cannot afford a business package, or the ISP refuses to offer it in a residential area due to old infrastructure. These people really suffer, they might go through multiple TBs of data a month. I completely agree with the article saying that a data cap is completely ineffective for bandwidth control.

Data is so cheap nowadays, so why keep gouging us?

And to speak for Mediacom specifically, I know that their infrastructure is far below acceptable. I have had discussions with many Mediacom cable techs that claim to see their distribution nodes at almost double their rated capacity, and when it is absolutely necessary to add another node, the users they migrate instantly fill that one up, making an endless cycle of being behind the curve of other ISPs. They aren't making the forward progress I believe they should be making to try and fire all these shots against the FCC.
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post #120 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

The following commentary is my personal opinion which runs counter to the beliefs of most of the people on this site. Don't read it if you are going to get all offended and call me a troll. You've been warned:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Its not up to us consumers to decide how much profit a private business is allowed to make, other than by using the our power to refuse their products/services. And these claims of 0 production costs for data that people keep making conveniently forget all about the massive overhead these ISP's incur in terms of labor force and maintenance costs. You think your internet just magically gets re-connected after a storm outage in half an hour? I understand that the issue is unlimited service and not the service itself but, again, see the first point in this post. If they want to arbitrarily impose data caps for whatever reason, they are well within their rights to do so. People just think because they want to use 10TB of data a month (to play games or post video of their weekend shenanigans on social media) that the ISP's have an obligation to provide it to them free of charge because in today's entitlement society everything under the sun is considered a "right" or "necessity" any more.

All that said, I am very fortunate that Comcast (yes, that evil Comcast that gets castigated in all of these threads) does not impose a data cap on me at all. I suspect that is the case for the vast majority of Americans, at least when it comes to cable internet. Do I wish that all internet was uncapped? As a consumer, of course I do! That doesn't mean I think its a right that ISP's should be required to provide free of charge.

Well, Comcast indeed DID impose data caps, and they were hilariously bad as a pet project in the Greater Altanta area. Our 150Mb down and 30Mb up had a 300GB data cap. At the time this was one of their higher tier packages. We would go over this cap about 3 times over monthly. Cable bill was almost $500 some months. I believe since I have cancelled with them, it has gone up, but it was too late. (Edit: I think the backlash from this caused CC to backpedal a little and not continue further)

Current ISP I use is WideOpenWest which has about the same number of subscribers as Mediacom, and does not enforce data caps on even the slowest internet package they offer. On top of that, this company only serves ~4.2% of my entire state.
Edited by raidmaxGuy - 9/28/16 at 9:47am
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AOC I2757Fh 27" IPS LED 1080p monitor Dell E207WFP 20.5'' TFT LCD monitor CM Storm QuickFire TK Cooler Master V-750 Modular 80 Plus Gold 
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Cooler Master Storm Stryker Roccat Savu HyenaAgenda 18'' gaming mat JVC HA RX700 
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Logitech G930 Wireless Headset Sound Blaster Z JVC RX-6000V 500W receiver Bose Acoustimass 3 Series III 
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SMK LINK Bluetooth 4.0 +EDR Adaptor Logysis Red 12" CCFL Belkin n52te speedpad Logitech Wireless Gamepad F710 
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Logitech Extreme 3D Pro 
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Intel i7 6820HK Intel(R) HD Graphics 530 Nvidia GeForce 980m Hynix DDR4 2133 
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1TB HGST 7K1000 7200RPM Windows 10 x64 Home Edition IGZO-IPS TrueLife 400 nits UHD display Dell 240W AC Adapter 
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Alienware 17 R3 Logitech G502 Proteus Core Creative Sound Blaster Recon3Di 
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Technology and Science News › [ARSTechnica] ISP explains data caps to FCC: Using the Internet is like eating Oreos