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[ARSTechnica] ISP explains data caps to FCC: Using the Internet is like eating Oreos - Page 6  

post #51 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by mouacyk View Post

Very well said regarding the motivation. The fact that most ISPs are monopolies doesn't help at all.

ISPs, in particular the largest ones, need to be subject to Glass-Steagall type legislation. Break them up.
post #52 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yttrium View Post

Can't you just put a tax on gasoline? Only a few people would top their tanks at the border. Anyway, going a bit off-topic

Of course you can. Most countries already have tax on gasoline. It has its pros and cons. The more cars become efficient, the government gets less revenue, as cars drive more but take less gas.
So for the government (and you) tax on distance can be better. if you drive less, you also pay less for gas, less tax per year, and you will enjoy it. On the other hand, those who life out of the country, they have to drive longer, they have to use big cars which also take more gas, they might pay a hell of a lot more, and they might not even be able to afford it.
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post #53 of 155
Most, if not all ISPs are a giant joke here in the US.

PAINFULLY slow upgrading to an aging infrastructure along with several major players enforcing usage caps. I think the only reason some companies have done any expansion/upgrade in the past few years is from Google kicking them in the ass.

I am somewhat lucky, but at the same time don't have any real options. I have TWC (now Charter) with a 300/20 connection (which recently became effectively 420/25 with their over-provisioning) and no caps. Oddly though, since the Charter take-over, they are only giving new customers the option of a 100/10 connection. I don't know yet whether or not they will keep the 300/20 option available, but it is worrying to say the least. I am hearing mixed things like they will offer 300/20 in certain areas (where there is competition), or only if you pay some sort of $200 "activation" fee. I'm just glad I already had it with TWC, so I appear to be "grandfathered" in.

If I wanted to leave though, my only option is AT&T DSL.... 18/1 connection? No Thanks.
     
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post #54 of 155
With an ISP you pay for speed, not data. The oreo analogy doesn't work out...I pay for a delivery of oreos every month. Some people eat all their oreos, and others eat only a portion of them and return them back to the store. T

Comcast wants to tell me that I can eat all my oreos for the first two deliveries, but if I don't give some back on the third it will cost extra. That is not the agreement we have comcast.
post #55 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

Now if he caps them from 100GB to 2GB, it means he only need to support 266GB/s in the overall of the network. And that is not a small home hub you are talking about. Its a series of huge network and infrastructure required.

A data cap doesn't really do much to limit peak bandwidth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

So it is your best interest for the ISP to give you as much infrastructure as possible, and in so, your ISP needs as much money as he can.

This would only be the case if the ISP spends a significant portion of the money it brings on infrastructure, which is very often not the case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalMX70 View Post

Most, if not all ISPs are a giant joke here in the US.

PAINFULLY slow upgrading to an aging infrastructure along with several major players enforcing usage caps. I think the only reason some companies have done any expansion/upgrade in the past few years is from Google kicking them in the ass.

Average broadband speeds were faster in my area of western NY fifteen years ago. Been TWC the whole time, but they have increased prices (at a rate well beyond inflation), capped both bandwidth and data, all the while doing essentially nothing to the infrastructure.

The fact that other areas, of similar population density, but with even a little credible competition, can get ten times the bandwidth at half the price, and apparently still be highly profitable, convinces me that pure profiteering is the status quo.
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post #56 of 155
A service is not a physical product, and in theory the cost of access should cover the cost of the only consumed resource; electricity to run the routers. I hope the FCC decides now is a good time to lay down some law. The deserve it just for the analogy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murderfini View Post

Please tell me that the TV uses the data in the data plan if you have a internet+TV package.

It does not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by frozne View Post

Pretty bad analogy when it comes to the economy. It costs the Oreo company more money to make 40 cookies compared to 4. It costs the ISPs nothing to go from 2GB, to 100GB data caps.

No, and no.

To make more oreos is done in mass production, so each oreo cost less the more you make on the same equipment, since if the machine to make them cost 100,000, that price is subsidies on each oreo.
So making just 40 cost 2,5000 to make, and to make 4, cost 25,000 to make.

To ISPs it is different, but similar all the same.
And I'll give an example with very rough numbers.
If 100 people are getting 100GB cap, and using it to the fullest viewing netflix.
It means the ISP needs to support 10,000GB per month for those people, lets say during the 7 hours or rush hour on each day. That means the ISP needs to support 13MB/s overall. And for that you can use a home hub if you have to. Its overall nothing.
Now if he needs to support 100,000 people, it means he need to support 13GB/s. That is a big jump in terms of support.
Now lets say he has 100M people. Now he needs to support 13TB/s.

Now if he caps them from 100GB to 2GB, it means he only need to support 266GB/s in the overall of the network. And that is not a small home hub you are talking about. Its a series of huge network and infrastructure required.

And that is before I'm talking about 150Mb/s speeds, or 1Gb/s speeds which even more complicate the issue.

Because of 100 people have 100GB per month and they are all watching netflix at the same time at lets say 3Mb/s, it means the ISP needs to support 300Mb/s between netflix servers and him and the clients.
Now if he has 100,000 netflix users, he need to support he needs to support 292Gb/s, which requires a lot more. And if the ISP has 100M people, he need to support 286Tb/s.

And this is the reason why they want to get more money from netflix, as netflix is causing them to need to increase their network capacity between netflix and the consumers, increase performance, which all of that isn't a small change. It cost a huge amount of money. So someone needs to pay for it. And if its not netlix, it will be the consumers, either through government, or through data caps to make sure not everyone are watching all the time, or through increasing package prices.

I will admit to tl;dr a little bit, but if they provide 10mbps they should be able to provide you 10mbps until the end of time consistently. To not be able to do so is overselling the line.

Also, Netflix does not have one central server, they use a multi-shard design, renting rack space in local ISP centers and storing it there. Minimizes backbone impact. 300tbps sounds like a lot until you realize it's only 3mbps per person and the data isn't going cross country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yttrium View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuell View Post

Time for a car analogy! I liken this to arguing that people should have their odometers checked and be taxed based on how much they drive on roads.

That would be pretty stupid to do... So yea... caps...

Actually some places are doing it like that.
Instead of several taxes, they are putting a tax based on how much you drive. You drive less, you pay less. You drive more, you pay more.
They reason is that the more you use the road, the more you cause the need to maintain it, and hence, you need to pay more.
That is actually pretty logical, and in some countries (france, NZ, russia), it is being applied to trucks. So on your analogy, it is ok to put that tax also on the most heavy users, aka, netflix, or big data users.

Can't you just put a tax on gasoline? Only a few people would top their tanks at the border. Anyway, going a bit off-topic

The problem is State vs Country vs County vs etc. Who owns the roads, and which do you use.

Gas has tax in the US, built into the cost, to pay for the roads (in theory). We also have some toll roads. But if you look into how our town/township/county/district/state/country taxes work you'll just depress yourself.
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post #57 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

Average broadband speeds were faster in my area of western NY fifteen years ago. Been TWC the whole time, but they have increased prices (at a rate well beyond inflation), capped both bandwidth and data, all the while doing essentially nothing to the infrastructure.

The fact that other areas, of similar population density, but with even a little credible competition, can get ten times the bandwidth at half the price, and apparently still be highly profitable, convinces me that pure profiteering is the status quo.

TWC capped out there? I thought they didn't cap at all. They certainly haven't here. At the very least, with this Charter acquisition (for better or most likely worse), there aren't supposed to be usage caps for something like the next 7 years.

As far as infrastructure goes... yeah it's total crap everywhere. No one wants to invest in it.
     
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post #58 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalMX70 View Post

TWC capped out there? I thought they didn't cap at all. They certainly haven't here. At the very least, with this Charter acquisition (for better or most likely worse), there aren't supposed to be usage caps for something like the next 7 years.

If it's not capped here it's a recent change. I know people who have been throttled for using too much data on lower tier plans at least semi-recently.

Back when Roadrunner was first introduced in this area (2000ish) there was no cap in either bandwidth or data and you could often max out the hardware available (DOCSIS 1.1, ~40/10 Mbps down/up). Around 2002 or so they introduced different tiers with bandwidth caps and short after started using a hidden data cap that persisted until pretty recently.
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post #59 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

I'm not talking about throttling. You read it all wrong.
I'm talking about two separate things. data caps and what is needed by the ISP to provide it to you, and speed and what is needed to provide it.
If you did not get that, read again.
In no point I was talking about throttling.
Throttling is the ISP having to reduce your speed, and in no point I was referring to it.

As far as data caps, either they throttle you, or make you pay for more. Maintaining speed relative to service agreements can really only be modified through throttling , which is why I figured that is what you were talking about. Data capping doesn't do anything because the concept of using 1GB of data and 1000GB is the same. The only difference is that if you use a lot, you can overlap when other customers use their data as well. Of course if they can't provide the speed they sell if everyone is on the network with netflix at the same time, they need to upgrade infrastructure.

You mentioned someone has to pay for it, most people don't realize, we already have. The government has given the ISP's tens of billions of dollars to expand and upgrade their networks and they pocketed it and did almost nothing.
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post #60 of 155
Real simple rule. "You wanna call it 'broad band' it's gotta be unlimited for free."
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