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[ScientificAmerican] Earth’s CO2 Passes the 400 PPM Threshold—Maybe Permanently - Page 17

post #161 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by claes View Post

This just tells me that you have not bothered or do not understand the implications of a 2* change in overall climate, neither those that have already occurred (empirically) or those that are theorized about based on scientific laws.
You forgot all of the current impacts of climate change (soil erosion and degradation, mass migrations, loss of drinkable water) and that the places where most people live will be under water, but more or less.

Actually I'm aware of that. I live in the midwest, with family that farms. The current measures to keep soil erosion down are modest at best. What's worse is, the increase in flooding here and rain is making this worse due to the change in weather patterns. Here, let me give you a hint of what I mean by flooding:

https://www.google.com/search?q=iowa+flooding&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjC8ffqwcPPAhUL7IMKHTZGD98Q_AUICigD&biw=1920&bih=974#hl=en&tbm=isch&q=iowa+flooding+2016

The cedar river hit a peak of 20 ft, which saved Cedar Rapids but not much else. The big worry is, if this is just rainfall, what happens in the spring with snow melt plus rainfall? See, it's not so good considering the flood of 08 hit a peak of 32 feet, flooded a quarter to half the city go google those images. It was bad, very very very very bad. Even with efforts today years later, if we hit 32ft again..... I can't even imagine the devastation and all of this erodes good farm land downstream.

So I'm very well aware of how this works, that flood heavily polluted the river too. We were advised not to swim in it, due to the severe toxicity of the water. Any chemical that was in homes, stores, warehouses downtown were directly leaked into the waters. Gas stations, who knows how much gas was wasted and washed into the river which ends up in the gulf. Yup, know idea what's going on.

[edit] To give an idea of the downtown in 08:


Those 3 lines were the 3 main streets downtown. That's 32ft of floodwater and the river can go up to 19ft before officially going over. That interstate, is extremely high normally. It was CRAZY

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcn77 View Post

So, plants are antisocial the way we are? It follows the evolutionary crap that somehow we are a superseding design and whatever befalls the planet, it is better off with us leading the way.
[edit video out annoying =P]

No, we aren't exactly the best thing around. I've herd the tree talk, know the largest organism? Fungus, there is currently one that's acres large. It kills redwood, and at a rapid pace. Who knows why it's doing so well, there's so little known about a lot of our ecosystem that we probably won't ever learn it all honestly. My post was to say, our footprint can and could be reduced but people are lazy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcn77 View Post

You're not a palm tree that will fell when the coastal sea level rises. Get a boat, or move inland.
We can draw nets over forests, do all sorts of low EROEI things, but the premise that we can somehow survive this energy drought is quite funny. Enthropy laws dictate that only natural utilizers of energy survives without any life harboring ecological system. That is energy from the sun that is the only renewable energy source as abundantly as we use it. 1 mw per m2, you cannot beat that with the same efficiency plants absorb it.
It is merely erosion control that we will need to get back to doing that we have avoided for so long. I do not have to remind you that there is not a single agricultural civilisation that has survived, right? We need to get the carbon planted into the soil - it works both ways - if we expect to have soil to plant in the future. With annual plants, you either live in a <20° cool climate that carbon doesn't naturally escape making the cost of planting species that leave the soil bare insignificant, or suffer carbon escaping from the soil above >20°. Basic math.

We can, though people don't realize biofuels aren't a good idea either. Though I do agree there are a lot of solutions but many societies and economies can't work as well. We haven't set it up, which costs time and money. Personally low cost solar panels would be amazing, but who's going to install them to "help the planet"? Not many, and in places where severe storms and weather damage stuff like that it becomes hard. I live in a state where wind could be a viable option to help decrease our print but it's still hard. Wind takes up valuable land, which we use for feed/food. Same with bio, bio would take up good land. Algae is a decent solution but there's funding that needs to be had.

On top of all of this, transportation is currently too dependent on oil which doesn't help CO2. You can't expect millions (to billions) of people to go "oh, lets switch vehicles because it's friendly". That's a lot of $$$ and on top of that waste. If every american went electric within 20 years, where do those cars go? Do we create another dump kind of like the largest e-dump? The one they call hell? Now that's a bit worse due to toxic materials. Although scrapping metal could also create thousands of jobs, which would be a win win although it's still a rather large operation.

Honestly I don't know the solution, it's just currently there isn't a very good one.
Edited by mushroomboy - 10/5/16 at 4:19am
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post #162 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post

No, we aren't exactly the best thing around. I've herd the tree talk, know the largest organism? Fungus, there is currently one that's acres large. It kills redwood, and at a rapid pace. Who knows why it's doing so well, there's so little known about a lot of our ecosystem that we probably won't ever learn it all honestly. My post was to say, our footprint can and could be reduced but people are lazy.
We can, though people don't realize biofuels aren't a good idea either. Though I do agree there are a lot of solutions but many societies and economies can't work as well. We haven't set it up, which costs time and money. Personally low cost solar panels would be amazing, but who's going to install them to "help the planet"? Not many, and in places where severe storms and weather damage stuff like that it becomes hard. I live in a state where wind could be a viable option to help decrease our print but it's still hard. Wind takes up valuable land, which we use for feed/food. Same with bio, bio would take up good land. Algae is a decent solution but there's funding that needs to be had.

On top of all of this, transportation is currently too dependent on oil which doesn't help CO2. You can't expect millions (to billions) of people to go "oh, lets switch vehicles because it's friendly". That's a lot of $$$ and on top of that waste. If every american went electric within 20 years, where do those cars go? Do we create another dump kind of like the largest e-dump? The one they call hell? Now that's a bit worse due to toxic materials. Although scrapping metal could also create thousands of jobs, which would be a win win although it's still a rather large operation.

Honestly I don't know the solution, it's just currently there isn't a very good one.
Pines are opportunistic creatures that acidify the soil and invade natural habitats through inciting forest fires - not like the other cooperative kind. They are lovely and I like their nuts(b1 source), but fact is, they don't do much for a "carbon-sequestering" ecosystem. You'd best let the mushrooms do the work. Once again, not having a frame of reference and just looking through a lens of zero-risk-bias could tend us in the wrong direction of ecologic interest.
Renewables as a solution to the carbon crisis is a misnomer. These are inorganic technologies and they are never going to be carbon-efficient. We aren't after energy-neutrality; we are after carbon-neutrality and are attempting to essentially generate more soil from carbon. The way to do that, again, is not solar panels. Chasing after more EROEI is looking for the last burst of fire, furthering our carbon balance deficit. You could reap more energy from solar panels, but the moment you let it compete for the same space that the plants take up, you are suddenly widening the carbon gap.
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post #163 of 189

Re-opened.

 

Keep the politics out guys.

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post #164 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by stargate125645 View Post

No, it's making a strawman because you have no tenable ground, so it's easier to tackle a fictitious point than reality.

What's fictitious about what he said? Rabid environmentalists believe in and preach exactly the kinds of things he was talking about, yet few of them are willing to throw away the lifestyle they currently have (instead insisting others do so). Its not a strawman if its actually true, and its the rabid environmentalist movement that is untenable, not those of us who just want to continue to enjoy our modern lifestyles (without having to pay 5 times the energy prices we have become accustomed to...

And on another note, I've noticed a dramatic uptick in the usage of these stupid "fallacies of debate" on the internet these days (its really becoming pervasive) and its getting old. Basically, somebody makes a point you don't like or don't have an answer for and you immediately start reciting these fallacies as though that in and of itself immediately ends all debate and makes you the winner. "That's a strawman!" That's ad hominem!" "That's slippery slope!" Yes, I have the internet and have heard of all of these too, you are not special or enlightened. Just blurting out the fallacies when not even warranted) does not make you smart or the winner of an argument. It just means you've heard of Google.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpankyMcFlych View Post

The chicken little'ing done by climate extremists also kinda kills the debate. How do you argue a position with someone who thinks we're going to go extinct because of a warming earth?

Al Gore and his famous movie claimed the Earth would be burning right now (he gave us 10 years from 2006 and last I checked, things are still just fine). Its just the same old crap every time where grandiose and dire predictions keep being made and eventually disproven, yet they immediately move the goal posts and make a new ludicrous prediction that also won't come true. Their act is tired and people are finally starting to catch on that climate change models are alarmist propaganda and based on junk science, nothing more.
It has already been explained. If you wish to believe some fictitious reality to suit your point of not caring, then fine, but that doesn't make you correct. What you are saying is not a reality, but a strawman used to make it seem like you have a point. That's the definition of the word.
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post #165 of 189
*comes back to thread after not reading the last several pages*

Any conclusions so far gentlemen?

*looks around curiously but can only hear crickets*

No? Ok, I'll just ... come back later ...
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post #166 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by stargate125645 View Post

It has already been explained. If you wish to believe some fictitious reality to suit your point of not caring, then fine, but that doesn't make you correct. What you are saying is not a reality, but a strawman used to make it seem like you have a point. That's the definition of the word.
CO_2 is a greenhouse gas without life on earth wouldn't be possible but adding it to the atmosphere should lead to some warming.

Reasoning by complete deniers is wrong. However so is the climate change death squads that claims the earth it going to explode and we are all going to die in 50 years.

Claims such as "the sea level is going to rise 10 meters by 2050". I'm not sure who is the bigger fool the deniers or the Greenpeace death squad with their outrageous claims.
The IPCC has setup a consensus however even they admit that we can't make a good prediction of how the climate is going to shift. What they do know is that long term it could cause some problems but not the extinction event doomsday activists preach about.
post #167 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by rluker5 View Post

2 degrees does sound like a conservative estimate.

I can check wikipedia too:

Note that sea levels are still rising, although relatively inconsequentially. They always do until temps start to drop.

These coastal regions have always been subject to severe flooding. But I heard that storm activity has been on the decrease.

What will make the globe have less land than the age of the dinasaurs when it was much hotter and CO2 was 10 to 20 times higher?
It sounds like another sensationalist claim.
While you are very good at finding a vague graph that appears to support your claim, you did a poor job of reading the first two paragraphs of that article:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedias article on Sea Level Rise 
Sea level rise has been estimated to be on average between +2.6 millimetres (0.10 in) and 2.9 millimetres (0.11 in) per year ± 0.4 millimetres (0.016 in) since 1993[3] and has accelerated in recent years.[4] For the period between 1870 and 2004, global average sea levels are estimated to have risen a total of 195 millimetres (7.7 in), and 1.7 millimetres (0.067 in) ± 0.3 millimetres (0.012 in) per year, with a significant acceleration of sea-level rise of 0.013 millimetres (0.00051 in) ± 0.006 millimetres (0.00024 in) per year.

According to one study of measurements available from 1950 to 2009, these measurements show an average annual rise in sea level of 1.7 millimetres (0.067 in) ± 0.3 millimetres (0.012 in) per year during this period, with satellite data showing a rise of 3.3 millimetres (0.13 in) ± 0.4 millimetres (0.016 in) per year from 1993 to 2009.[5] Sea level rise is one of several lines of evidence that support the view that the global climate has recently warmed.[6] In 2014 the USGCRP National Climate Assessment projected that by the year 2100, the average sea level rise will have been between one and four feet (300mm-1200mm) since the date of the 2014 assessment. Current rates of sea level rise have roughly doubled since the pre 1992 rates of sea level rise of the 20th century
rolleyes.gif
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post #168 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcn77 View Post

Pines are opportunistic creatures that acidify the soil and invade natural habitats through inciting forest fires - not like the other cooperative kind. They are lovely and I like their nuts(b1 source), but fact is, they don't do much for a "carbon-sequestering" ecosystem. You'd best let the mushrooms do the work. Once again, not having a frame of reference and just looking through a lens of zero-risk-bias could tend us in the wrong direction of ecologic interest.
Renewables as a solution to the carbon crisis is a misnomer. These are inorganic technologies and they are never going to be carbon-efficient. We aren't after energy-neutrality; we are after carbon-neutrality and are attempting to essentially generate more soil from carbon. The way to do that, again, is not solar panels. Chasing after more EROEI is looking for the last burst of fire, furthering our carbon balance deficit. You could reap more energy from solar panels, but the moment you let it compete for the same space that the plants take up, you are suddenly widening the carbon gap.

The same goes for wind. I mean solar on houses, buildings already in place.

Personally I don't like pines. I'm a fan of the sycamore. Or the maple, for its syrup. I really think we should find more ways to reduce. Instead of tv give yourself time outside and frankly save energy period.

It's not just co2 but energy waste in general that I see as ugly. Either way we are in for a ride now.

[edit] I know pines was an example of why things happen, but fungi are extremely under studied. It's taken ages for us to fully understand why in the northern corn belt/growing areas of the midwest planting soybeans helps. Now we know why, because we had a need to study and studied it. Basically, if we don't have a need we don't do much to learn. It's how the world works. =(
Edited by mushroomboy - 10/5/16 at 12:48pm
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post #169 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by claes View Post

While you are very good at finding a vague graph that appears to support your claim, you did a poor job of reading the first two paragraphs of that article:
rolleyes.gif
Yup not the 10 meters by 2050 that the climaphate claims. Additional CO_2 in the air is a great stimulus for plant growth.

Knowing just how we argued in the past what do you find more important:
Food for the ever expanding population?
or
Preventing further increases in CO_2 concentrations?

I think you are going to pick both being the goodmensch you are wink.gif
post #170 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by maarten12100 View Post

Yup not the 10 meters by 2050 that the climaphate claims. Additional CO_2 in the air is a great stimulus for plant growth.
? You act as if this is a response to all of the reasonable outcomes of drastic sea rise by the vast majority of climate scientists - it does not. A herring is a herring is a herring.
Quote:
Knowing just how we argued in the past what do you find more important:
Food for the ever expanding population?
or
Preventing further increases in CO_2 concentrations?

I think you are going to pick both being the goodmensch you are wink.gif
I would say that you do not understand or are conveniently ignoring the outcomes of increased CO2 concentrations on things besides plant life and are offering a false choice (and also don't seem to be familiar with much of the mainstream environmental policy that would effectively do both, and employ people! So yes, thanks for the compliment smile.gif).
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Technology and Science News › [ScientificAmerican] Earth’s CO2 Passes the 400 PPM Threshold—Maybe Permanently