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[ScientificAmerican] Earth’s CO2 Passes the 400 PPM Threshold—Maybe Permanently - Page 5

post #41 of 189
Blameless you speak as it you know but I have seen many so called sciences pushed as fact when in reality it was a hypothesis at best. When someone wants the agenda pushed forward for what ever reason and the ones fitting the bill want it so then the good scientists will leave and the ones left behind push the agenda. That is the manner and state of our world. The agenda is more important than the science and discover. Don't tell me I'm wrong and show me zero proof of your claim.
post #42 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

If there were a simple solution, it would have been adopted already.

But I wasn't the one adopting them.

You forget the Frickfrock guarantee never fails.
post #43 of 189
Simple question to resolve the conflict: does rainfall drop with climate change?
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post #44 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcn77 View Post

Simple question to resolve the conflict: does rainfall drop with climate change?

Depends, if we're talking about 'warming' it doesn't as more water vapor (which is also a greenhouse gas) enters the atmosphere from evaporation. If it's cooling, it will rain (or snow) less as there's less vapor in the atmosphere.

I'm a little confused on what your real question or what you may be implying is though.
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post #45 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

That map only shows CO/CO2 concentrations. The reason it's lower in the southern hemisphere is because the majority of people live in the northern hemisphere.

That's a much too reductionist answer, in my opinion. Population is the least important factor. Cultural characteristics of the population is what has the biggest impact on their CO2 footprint. There are plenty of high population countries that do not need to be lumped into the same pile as Western-style heavy consumers.

The oceans absorb a significant portion of atmospheric CO2 for the same reasons that the forests do. Also, there is significantly less landmass south of the equator, which is another reason you can't just make the link to population and leave it at that. It's the consumption habits of the population that determine their CO2 output, and their preservation of existing plant matter as well.

A lot of people push population control when talking about global warming because it seems like an obvious answer, but any mention of population scares the crap out of people who take this seriously. It's not hard to go from something like this, to something like a world war. Obama blaming Syria on global warming, for instance, probably creates some serious tensions with people who have different perspectives on the climate change issue.

This is, after all, an issue that conflicts with western culture's consumerism and imperialism. America is not and will not lead by example, and it appears to be because America garnishes it's dominance by being the gatekeeper to energy consumption in general. Our economic, militaristic, and technological dominance all stem from our gluttony of carbon fuels in tandem with our game of keep-away for countries that desperately need cheaper energy.

This makes global warming more of a global threat than the global warming itself, because it undermines American dominance. America is struggling to remain on top as it is, and it can't remain on top if it pursues cleaner energy. America gets the cheapest prices on energy of any nation in the entire world, and it uses more energy than any other nation in the world.except China. China, who ironically uses that fuel to provide cheap goods to America instead of tending to their own desperate needs for a higher standard of living.

The simplistic conclusions they suggest people adopt about global warming.. they're highly offensive in my opinion. It's continually turned into a question of faith in science on the news and in politics or even in scientific circles, but it's clearly not as simple as a few statistics. It involves deep moral questions about the direction that has led us here. It brings America's worth as a world leader into a well-justified questioning.

The biggest problems surrounding this issue are the implications of fairness in solving it. Reduction of energy consumption is very much the same as disarmament, from a military point of view. Economy drags, military precedents becomes unsustainable moving forward, and cheating inevitably occurs giving rise to a feeling of military weakness which, in turn, reverses all progress and heightens tensions.

Things just aren't as simple as the science. It's makes me feel like someone's trying to recruit me for a religious crusade because the scripture is surely, surely correct.

More matters than just the scripture, or the science. There's more to the issue, and anyone telling you otherwise holds you (and probably him/her self) in complete and total contempt.
Edited by Mookster - 9/28/16 at 12:19pm
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post #46 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie2009 View Post

And those who see all predictions made by global warmers have failed to pass and the models warmers use don't even take into account the SUN with regards to climate. Beyond retarded. All predictions wrong, don't include the sun, but very credible. Oh and caught cooking the numbers too.
Oh and seen as global warming wasn't working, changed to climate change, because ya know, without humans, the climate was always the same.

Friends of government get a pass on the carbon tax to "fight" global warming, smaller companies get raped and competition of the largest companies go out of business.

Whilst actual pollution continues unchecked and rich people flying around in private jets preach to cut your carbon footprint.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mookster View Post

I just looked BulletBait's graphs, checked other sources, found the same info presented by credible sources (often scientists.)

To me this is a question of faith in certain scientists / politicians, not a question of faith in science itself. It's not even a question of faith in climate change; it's a question of faith in human-caused climate change. And if this climate change is human caused, it's a moral question and a question of realism surrounding the way people plan to deal with it.

Population control? Deny energy to developing worlds? Reduce our own energy consumption and risk becoming economically or militarily weaker than other nations? By the way, what if those other nations don't believe us, and will only end up buying up fuel that we decide not to?

What if we lose our influence and can't force China / Russia to adhere to our plans to stop global warming? If it truly is a question of survival for the human race, do we stop them now? If not, when?



No, people who deny or question human-caused climate change and the implications of it are not just scared. They're not just worried about their money. They're worried about faith driven decisions, when those people asking for our faith are not giving us realistic information to make decisions.. yet still forcing us to make a decision.

Not as simple as you want it to be. The world isn't sunshine and lollipops; if we aren't being given information about decisions, we need to remain skeptical about the implications of passive approval. We need to know what it means to fight climate change. It does not mean magical free energy. To some, it might mean eugenics, or genocide. To some, it might mean food can't be delivered to their bustling populations. Fossil fuels are a product of American industrialism, which is a product of American freedom, which is a product of rebellion against the British Empire, which many still view to be a reckless thing that led to THIS destabilization of the world.

I'm not saying that's a good point of view, I'm saying that people abroad might hold this point of view. Possibly certain religious extremists, or maybe entire countries who fought against American influence just in the last two world wars.

Global warming is kind of a big deal when you're in China, Russia, The Middle East, Argentina, Vietnam, South America, Cuba, Ukraine, Turkey.. I don't know? It's a long list of people who rely on America to keep the oil flowing to their country. The thought of American politicians and possibly military viewing global warming as a threat to America.. that MIGHT cause certain world leaders to be concerned about what America will do as the world's military, economic, and energy superpower.

Or maybe it's just that climate denying is stupid because science.

My views are an amalgamation of these two excellent posts.
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post #47 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by BulletBait View Post

Depends, if we're talking about 'warming' it doesn't as more water vapor (which is also a greenhouse gas) enters the atmosphere from evaporation. If it's cooling, it will rain (or snow) less as there's less vapor in the atmosphere.

I'm a little confused on what your real question or what you may be implying is though.
Everyone is confounded by a separate phenomena, the shift of Earth's rotational axis. That is why rain falls less on temperate climatic regions. Climate change is a blessing for the same regions of the earth. However as polar ice melts, the earth wobbles some more...
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post #48 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcn77 View Post

Everyone is confounded by a separate phenomena, the shift of Earth's rotational axis. That is why rain falls less on temperate climatic regions. Climate change is a blessing for the same regions of the earth. However as polar ice melts, the earth wobbles some more...

There's really (and I say this honestly) too many factors to come to a complete conclusion on how bad anthropogenic change will be. It will never reach Venus level runaway global warming, because the negative feedback loops are too strong for that and the positive feedback starts to hit a exponential wall to overcome those negative loops. The question is, how much damage happens before the negative feedback is too strong? Now Antarctica will never completely melt, but say it did, we'd be looking at a 10-15% reduction in landmass. Then you have to consider the total impact, extension of the central deserts making large swaths of land uninhabitable. The question remains, would the unlocking of northern tundras (I say northern, since the s. hemisphere tundra region has a sparse collection of islands) to more temperate climate be enough to offset that loss?

Anyways, the models and predictions will always be imprecise given the number of factors. The statement that we are accelerating 'change' and average 'warming' given the current set of circumstances is indisputable.
Edited by BulletBait - 9/28/16 at 12:41pm
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post #49 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by BulletBait View Post

Am I the only one who's bashing their head on the keyboard every time someone keeps saying plant food and super forests? This completely disregards the historical trend of deforestation that has occurred since the Neolithic Revolution and sharply accelerated with the industrial revolution. There's been a 75-90% loss in total forest land cover (depending on which model you go by). The last remaining large forests remain in the tropics, or developing countries, which are following the same model as Europe and NA since 1850, with clearance cutting. It's estimated around 50% of those have been lost since 1950 and 10% will remain in 2030 based on current projections.

Unless you bring up abiotic and small plants and increasing them somehow. There isn't enough phytoplankton in the world to make up for it though, and again, depending on what models you go by, seaborne plant carbon sinks and abiotic carbon sinks have been net neutral since we started tracking it.

http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/wilderness-resources/stories/more-trees-than-there-were-100-years-ago-its-true

People can change their habits.

Cutting CO2 doesn't magically bring the trees back, and people aren't suddenly going away.

We need a model of cohabitation, not societal destruction.

Just imagine what a community on Norther California would look like if every yard had a giant redwood in it. You'd barely be able to tell people were there at all.


Not to mention we should really be ten times more concerned about water quality than we are about air quality, the only difference is people haven't figured out a strategy to monetize water pollution.
Edited by ILoveHighDPI - 9/28/16 at 12:52pm
post #50 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by GingerJohn View Post

So long as 'simple' includes 'cost effective' or 'profitable', then yes.

A solution that demands sacrifices people are unwilling to make is no solution at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mayford5 View Post

Don't tell me I'm wrong and show me zero proof of your claim.

All you need to do is look at the actual data (a good sample of which is on the first page of this thread). No factor (including natural glaciation or solar cycles), other than the presence of humanity, explains the current rate of global average temperature increase or the rate of increasing CO2 concentrations, which are utterly unprecedented in at least the last 800k years.

You can either look at actual data, not to mention the world around you, or you can pretend that reality doesn't matter, perhaps holding to some absurd notion that mother nature is beyond the power of ~4 trillion man-years of humanity to influence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcn77 View Post

Simple question to resolve the conflict: does rainfall drop with climate change?

Not sure what conflict could possibly be resolved by the answer to that question, but higher average global temperature implies and increased rate of evaporation and thus precipitation. Of course increased global precipitation doesn't mean their won't be areas that become much drier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mookster View Post

The simplistic conclusions they suggest people adopt about global warming.. they're highly offensive in my opinion. It's continually turned into a question of faith in science on the news and in politics or even in scientific circles, but it's clearly not as simple as a few statistics. It involves deep moral questions about the direction that has led us here. It brings America's worth as a world leader into a well-justified questioning.

Facts are facts; they don't have any moral implications, they just are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mookster View Post

Things just aren't as simple as the science.

No, things aren't simple as the science...which is why I prefer to stick to the science and leave the morals, ethics, economics, and politics to others.

I do find it rather comical that so many people seem to need to convince themselves that the consensus is somehow fundamentally wrong in order to continue acting in their own short-term self interests.
Edited by Blameless - 9/28/16 at 1:00pm
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Technology and Science News › [ScientificAmerican] Earth’s CO2 Passes the 400 PPM Threshold—Maybe Permanently