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[SpaceX] Making humans a multiplanetary species - Page 4

post #31 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToTheSun! View Post

Most are not incredibly intelligent engineers, either. Is that the point you want to make?

I'm still waiting for the supposed 'end of the world' so often talked about whenever space travel is mentioned. It makes for great clickbait, and not much else.
post #32 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronnin426850 View Post

Why do you only consider resources and space? Yes, I agree that as far as bare necessities are concerned - amount of food, water, air and space - we will be fine for an unforeseeable amount of time. However, that is not all there is to be considered. Looking at the geological timeline, we haven't had a major, extinction-level disaster in some time. Massive volcanic eruptions are overdue and statistically-wise, we should be getting hit by a medium to large space object at some point in the near future, and strictly historically-wise, we are at the edge of another ice age, it's what the clock says. Not to mention a single solar flare can fry the whole planet in matter of seconds, and can not be predicted or avoided.

But luck-based phenomenon aside, Fukushima is currently dumping 300 tons of highly radioactive water daily in the pacific ocean - the source of half the world's food. And humanity does not have the physical ability to limit this contamination for the next 10 years at least. By the time this is handled, the radiation background of the entire planet will have risen dramatically, due to this one accident alone. And this is all official data, not speculation. What of accidents yet to happen? What of accidents we do not know about? What of contaminants other than radiation? Sure, we have resources and space. But until we have viable means to handle radiation, contamination, unbalance in the ecosystems, major sea level rise, major temperature fluctuations, and fine ash clouds from either volcanic activity or collision, our best hope to protect our species from extinction, is to spread, to colonize. And considering how long it would take to establish a viable colony, we have no time to waste. 2cents.gif


So, let's see, we are turning this planet into a radioactive desert wasteland with ultimately little to no living conditions, so instead of trying to fix it by spending lots of money on solutions to the problems, let's instead spend lots of money on travelling through radiation, heading towards a deserted planet that has little to no living conditions.

It's a bit ironic.

But then again, we went to the moon first and only found the Titanic at the bottom of the Atlantic because a guy insisted he got the funds to do it as an aside to a mission for the US government.
 
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post #33 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

So, let's see, we are turning this planet into a radioactive desert wasteland with ultimately little to no living conditions, so instead of trying to fix it by spending lots of money on solutions to the problems, let's instead spend lots of money on travelling through radiation, heading towards a deserted planet that has little to no living conditions.

It's a bit ironic.

But then again, we went to the moon first and only found the Titanic at the bottom of the Atlantic because a guy insisted he got the funds to do it as an aside to a mission for the US government.

Another thing: large multi stage rockets require copious amounts of fossil fuels. Last I checked, burning that isn't environmentally friendly in the slightest.
post #34 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

So, let's see, we are turning this planet into a radioactive desert wasteland with ultimately little to no living conditions,

Wait what? We live in a radioactive wasteland now?

Have you confused Fallout for real life or have I missed a recent nuclear war? wink.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by lombardsoup View Post

Another thing: large multi stage rockets require copious amounts of fossil fuels. Last I checked, burning that isn't environmentally friendly in the slightest.

Inorganic rocket fuels used include:

  • Liquid oxygen + liquid hydrogen
  • Nitrogen tetroxide + hydrazine
  • Powdered oxidizers + powdered metals + inorganic binders
  • Zinc + sulfur powder


Not a carbon atom in sight, so no need to dig up dead dinosaurs algae.
Edited by CynicalUnicorn - 9/29/16 at 8:03am
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post #35 of 93
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Originally Posted by CynicalUnicorn View Post

Wait what? We live in a radioactive wasteland now?

Have you confused Fallout for real life or have I missed a recent nuclear war? wink.gif
Inorganic rocket fuels used include:

  • Liquid oxygen + liquid hydrogen
  • Nitrogen tetroxide + hydrazine
  • Powdered oxidizers + powdered metals + inorganic binders
  • Zinc + sulfur powder


Not a carbon atom in sight, so no need to dig up dead dinosaurs algae.

All of which still involve resource exploitation. And you're right, there's no carbon involved, but you're still burning the above. How is this 'green'?
post #36 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by lombardsoup View Post

Another thing: large multi stage rockets require copious amounts of fossil fuels. Last I checked, burning that isn't environmentally friendly in the slightest.

Depends on the rocket.

Many use LOX and LH2 (neither of which are fossil fuels), and the exhaust of this is water. However, it's often more efficient to use kerosene and LOX because liquid hydrogen has horrible volumetric energy capacity (it's very efficient per unit of mass, but it's density is very low), not to mention requiring insulated tanks and refrigeration.

Rockets that do use hydrocarbon fuels are not environmentally friendly, though it would take a lot of rocket launches to really be much more than a drop in the bucket as far as emissions go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalUnicorn View Post

Inorganic rocket fuels used include:

  • Liquid oxygen + liquid hydrogen
  • Nitrogen tetroxide + hydrazine
  • Powdered oxidizers + powdered metals + inorganic binders
  • Zinc + sulfur powder


Not a carbon atom in sight, so no need to dig up dead dinosaurs algae.

First one suffers from the volume and cryogenic state of the propellants. Still commonly used though as the performance is good.

Second one is poisonous and corrosive, with relatively poor performance. Useful for maneuvering thrusters as a monopropellant though.

Third one is only suitable as a solid fuel, which generally limits their application to boosters as they cannot be throttled.

Fourth one is also solid fuel only, and has poor performance characteristics.

Most high performance chemical rockets in use today use hydrocarbons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lombardsoup View Post

All of which still involve resource exploitation. And you're right, there's no carbon involved, but you're still burning the above. How is this 'green'?

In the case of LOX/LH2, the fuel comes from electrolysis of water and liquification of air, and becomes water again when burned...it's pretty damn green, depending on where your electricity comes from.

The rest are less so, though hydrazine isn't that bad as the most dangerous thing it winds up as is ammonia.
Edited by Blameless - 9/29/16 at 8:16am
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post #37 of 93
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Originally Posted by CynicalUnicorn View Post

Wait what? We live in a radioactive wasteland now?

Have you confused Fallout for real life or have I missed a recent nuclear war? wink.gif

It's hard for me to confuse it with that game franchise since I never played it.

But you know what I meant, read the sentence again and notice the terms used. It's a long term thing, just as the plan for setting up a colony in Mars is.
 
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post #38 of 93
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Originally Posted by ronnin426850 View Post

When a ship starts taking water, you do all your best to repair it and prevent it from sinking, but you also prepare the lifeboats, just in case. Is all I'm saying. I'm all for fixing the Earth, I like it here.

Preparing the lifeboats to go where? That's the thing. In my opinion, this is more like preparing a submarine to go to the bottom of the ocean and try to live in a sunken ship (Mars) that will be in worse condition than the planet we are currently.

Since a computer game (Fallout) was already mentioned, we might as well build an underwater city right here on Earth, a la BioShock.
Edited by tpi2007 - 9/29/16 at 10:26am
 
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post #39 of 93
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Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

Since a computer game (Fallout) was already mentioned, we might as well build an underwater city right here on Earth, a la BioShock.
Hey, i'm down with that!
    
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post #40 of 93
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Originally Posted by ronnin426850 View Post

It's not a matter of probability, tectonic activity is scientifically predictable and Yellowstone should have erupted already. It may do so at any moment. It is overdue, that is a proven scientific fact.

I was more referring to things like impact events, but the Yellowstone caldera is not something that "should have erupted already", nor is it overdue. Indeed, another supererruption may well never occur at the Yellowstone caldera.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronnin426850 View Post

Same with ice ages - last 3 were evenly spaced, and next is due some time in the next 1000 years. As for "cancelled by our actions" - if you think global warming can counter an ice age, just because one is "warm" and the other is "ice", you need even more googling - ice ages have always been preceded by a rise in the average yearly temperature, which is what global warming is. Perhaps it has been affected by human activity, but not in the direction of canceling the process, but in the direction of assisting it.

Increasing CO2 levels don't precipitate ice ages. Lower temperatures reduce atmospheric CO2 and higher temperatures increase atmospheric CO2. Prior to us, solar cycles drove ice ages, which drove atmospheric CO2 concentrations. We have disrupted that, quite possibly permanently.

Current climate change will alter, and is altering, the the glaciation cycles of this planet. That's what an ice age is, below average global temperature over geologic time scales. By the time what should have reached the next peak of glaciation, global temperatures won't be any colder than today, and the "ice age" will be rather lacking in ice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronnin426850 View Post

Gulfstream, which is the sole reason we are not covered in snow 10 out of 12 months in any location north of Algeria, depends on a very fragile balance of evaporation and condensation along the entire Atlantic, which can not survive a sharp rise in average temperature. Simply said - it gets warm, Gulfstream terminates, it gets really really cold. It's not about probability, it's not about flipping heads or tails.

Collapse of the gulfstream isn't going to alter global temperatures nor will it keep the arctic cold enough to retain substantially more ice. Sure, northwestern Europe may get colder, but global temperatures are still in for an unprecedented (as far as this geological era is concerned) rise.

The frequency of impact events and many volcanic phenomena absolutely can be described in terms of probability. Sure, they can happen at any time, but again having not happened for a while is no indicator that they will happen soon.
Edited by Blameless - 9/29/16 at 12:00pm
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