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Glycol must be at a concentration of >20% says expert - Page 2

post #11 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by kl6mk6 View Post

Also found this in the article...

"Microbiological monitoring is seldom needed in hot water loops that operate continuously above 140°F (60°C) or in chilled systems where the glycol concentration is above 20%"

The article also mentions adding a pH buffering chemecal to make sure you properly manage corrosion.

"Ortho phosphate, typically dipotassium phosphate (or adjusted mixtures of di- and tripotassium phosphate) can be used to control the pH between 9 to 10.5"

This article implies an all metal loop, I have no idea how these chemicals at high levels react to plastics and acrylics at such *high* levels. Maybe someone else can answer that.

Most loops run in the 30-40*c range.


Of the PC coolants I looked at, they were all <15% eth glycol/prop glycol

The iron jet plate does seem like a bad idea now that I think about it.




Everyone has an opinion on the matter. Some argue with facts and logic, others argue with feelings and ideas. You can't convince someone to change their mind when they're not using logic. wink.gif
post #12 of 25
If your worried about glycol, just dont use it, it is toxic to the environment anyways. glycol is more corrosive than distilled water if uninhibited...glycol is only used to change boiling/freezing point (not necessary in our loops) and for inhibitor solubility (only use in our loops). My current fluid is 90% distilled with EC6 clear concentrate (diluted per EC6 instructions...they use vegetable extract for inhibitor solubility instead of glycol). Or can use EC6 premix (which is 90% distilled and 10% vegetable extract + inhibitors. It is just inhibitors that you want anyway, if concerned about corrosion, mainly useful to protect nickel plating. There are others out there as well, but I prefer the concentrate, so can use my own distilled.

Ive been watercooling for 15 years, one of my rads is over 10 years old and working fine. I have 4 pumps, all still work fine, none corroded. And many cpu blocks, none with corrosion. First 5 years I ran 5-10% auto coolant (glycol) and distilled, never had an issue. It was the standard 15 years ago. Glycol requires bacteria, high temps, oxygen, or acidity to breakdown....so unless folding 24/7 with gpus with poor cooling, not as much a concern in our loops as opposed to water towers. Also the stainless steel jet plates, are the least concern for corrosion.

But to me the reason not to use gylcol is just not needed, 1 extra risk with no benefit. there are plenty of options with ~10% vegetable extracts for the desired inhibitors to be soluble and are less toxic and less of a disposal issue.
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post #13 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by opt33 View Post

My current fluid is 90% distilled with EC6 clear concentrate
What can this be purchased? I've looked but it seems to be out of stock everywhere. It says it has been discontinued also.
Edited by superstition222 - 10/4/16 at 7:20pm
post #14 of 25
EC6 premix (nonconcentrate) is here:
http://www.performance-pcs.com/xspc-ec6-non-conductive-coolant-clear.html

EC6 concentrate is called ECX (I should have mentioned that distinction, probably why you couldnt find it), it is here:
http://www.performance-pcs.com/xspc-ecx-ultra-concentrate-coolant-clear.html

list of all xspc fluids
http://www.performance-pcs.com/fluids-additives/shopby/brand--xspc/

edt: there are other concentrates available as well that use vegetable extracts with inhibitors. Mayems X1 clear here:
http://www.performance-pcs.com/mayhems-x1-clear-concentrate-100ml.html#Details
Edited by opt33 - 10/5/16 at 5:01am
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post #15 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by opt33 View Post

EC6 premix (nonconcentrate) is here:
http://www.performance-pcs.com/xspc-ec6-non-conductive-coolant-clear.html

EC6 concentrate is called ECX (I should have mentioned that distinction, probably why you couldnt find it), it is here:
http://www.performance-pcs.com/xspc-ecx-ultra-concentrate-coolant-clear.html

list of all xspc fluids
http://www.performance-pcs.com/fluids-additives/shopby/brand--xspc/

edt: there are other concentrates available as well that use vegetable extracts with inhibitors. Mayems X1 clear here:
http://www.performance-pcs.com/mayhems-x1-clear-concentrate-100ml.html#Details
Thanks for the links.

Mayhem's pastel coolant is made with glycerol (40-60% of the solution as I recall). I wonder if that is the vegetable extract being discussed. I guess the glycerol helps to keep the pigment particles suspended.

Non-toxic inhibitors are a surprise since all the research I've been doing shows that the inhibitors that are used for copper are toxic, generally various azoles. Of the non-toxic or low-toxic options: Sodium nitrite is used with aluminum or steel I think. Silicates are used in some auto antifreezes but might be abrasive and cause sludging. Borates may have a mild inhibitory effect but I think they're mainly used to buffer pH. I've read sodium nitrite is bad news for copper. Phosphates are used in Japanese auto antifreeze but would cause biological growth without a lot of ethylene glycol. They're probably mostly pH buffers like borates. A friend of mine who is a chemist suggested tetrasodium EDTA but I've yet to see that listed in anything in the research I've been doing. My assumption is that it probably gets used up too quickly. EDTA is basically non-toxic.

Biodegradable is listed on labels of coolants a lot but it doesn't tell anymore much since ethylene glycol is biodegradable. Inhibitors like chromate that aren't are banned. I guess molybdate might not be biodegradable but it's not really much of an issue given the small concentration and it's not as toxic as chromate.

The most recent auto antifreezes (OAT and HOAT) have done away with 2-EHA which apparently rots seals but even products I've seen referred to as no-nitrite have nitrite in the MSDS. A silicate-free no-EHA no-nitrite glycol antifreeze might be an option at a 25-30% glycol to water concentration — but, as you said, we don't need the freezing protection of glycol just its biofilm inhibition.
post #16 of 25
Thread Starter 
Apparently XSPC ECX uses propylene glycol. At a 1:9 mixing ratio that makes it seem like it's going to be lower than a 20% concentration of glycol to water. Hmm...

The MSDS is the most minimal I've seen, too. It doesn't say how much PG is in it nor what the inhibitors are.
Edited by superstition222 - 10/5/16 at 4:04pm
post #17 of 25
I remember reading a post a while ago in a forum (or was it stackexchange?) that got replies by industrial cooling experts.
Basically what I remember is that distilled water when you place it in a loop leeches ions from the metals degrading them, and with a bit of time passing it goes in balance. It's unavoidable and only alternative is using tap water which will bring a lot of nasty stuff in your system. The best practice he was recommending was to avoid flushing and changing the water a lot - and instead using additives, monitoring the properties of water constantly and giving it maintenance to keep the water useable as much as possible.

I'm also interested in what the knowledge of the industry can give us to us watercoolers. I'm not a chemist nor an engineer but with a little bit of research it was clear to me that there is a LOT of misinformation, falsehoods and plain wrong habits in this hobby.
It's very unfortunate that I don't really have the technical background to understand completely and I can't find a solution to a lot of these issues by myself.
You'll find a lot of papers and articles about this on the internet full of information, but these people work on a different level and you need some good knowledge to adapt all this stuff in a low budget, low temperature, mixed metals + plastic situation like a PC loop.
For example when talking about biocides, it's recommended to give a sample of the water to a laboratory and develop a custom solution for the specific biological growth that you get. That's clearly not something that everyone can do at home.

I really hope that one day we get an industrial cooling expert that has the time to give some good specific advice or even do some guides biggrin.gif
     
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post #18 of 25
Thread Starter 
One interesting corrosion inhibitor and biocide product I happened upon is called Accepta 2542.

It has the following:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Accepta 
Potassium hydroxide, 5–15%
Sodium Molybdate, 5–15%
Benzotriazole, <5%
Borax 5–25%

Accepta 2542 is a high performance molybdate - borate based water treatment corrosion inhibitor scientifically formulated to offer excellent corrosion control for the protection of steel, copper and brass in water systems.

High performance corrosion inhibitor for steel, copper and brass
Minimises unwanted microbiological system growth

Dose Accepta 2542 to maintain a molybdate level of at least 180 ppm and a pH greater than 9.

The molybdate and benzotriazole are high-performance corrosion inhibitors. Molybdate tends to be found in the most expensive high-performance vehicle coolant formulations and benzotriazole is apparently the standard azole for used for conserving copper and bronze artifacts. The tetraborate is likely used as a pH buffer and to add some alkalinity. It apparently has some biocidal effect, too. The potassium hydroxide is surprising to me. I assume it's just to raise the pH past tetraborate's limit, though.

This stuff can't be used with aluminum but the nice thing is that is doesn't require any glycol.

How well it will work with solder, though, is a big question. Solder in today's loops (which generally lack aluminum) seems to be the biggest source of corrosion trouble. Its galvanic potential is .30 when compared to copper and .35 when compared with nickle, according to the popular chart. Compared with a kill coil it's .50. Given that Accepta is not for use with aluminum its high pH requirement may be an issue with solder. From everything I've been reading, 8 is the more optimal pH for our systems. It isn't alkaline enough to encourage scale or acidic enough to encourage metal ions to rapidly dissolve. Perhaps molybdate requires a high pH to remain soluble?

galvanictable_0210.jpg

This chart says that anything in yellow is questionable but probably OK but anything in white is bad news:

Galvanic-Corrosion-Chart2-1024x350.jpg

Judging from this it looks like nickle would be a better choice than copper for watercooling, based on galvanic potential. The only things you couldn't use it with are aluminum and silver. The chart also suggests that kill coils are much more of a problem for nickle than for copper (and potentially a problem with solder).

Based on this chart, a kill coil would be compatible only with an all-copper loop with blocks that don't use water-exposed solder.

corrosion1.jpg?w=614
Edited by superstition222 - 10/6/16 at 1:18pm
post #19 of 25
Luckily then I used 35% concentration of Propylene Glycol in mine 2.5 years ago and the open loop is still running like a charm! biggrin.gif
 
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post #20 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunderman456 View Post

Luckily then I used 35% concentration of Propylene Glycol in mine 2.5 years ago and the open loop is still running like a charm! biggrin.gif
What did you use for galvanic corrosion inhibition?
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