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post #41 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloCamo View Post

You assume that so many people know little on the subject and yet don't seem to show much knowledge yourself. That said, all the recent development tricks in the world will not make up for the fact that the jaguar based cpu is VERY under powered. They can offload as much as they want to the gpu within reason but this does not take away the bottom line that when the cpu is called, it barely can deliver. I've got a 2.4ghz puma based quad core, and it is dog slow in most tasks. That's 800mhz faster than what is in the ps4 and it's anemic. Sure, ps4's got four more cores to work with but that barely makes up (if at all) the clock deficit.

.

It doesn't take an expert to spot you have 0 hr training in C++ and 3D engine architecture let alone algorithm. I do graphicial API integration for mobile/web app for a living, mostly light weight ones, in fact I have read documents of heavy weight API such as DX, Joni and OpenGl and hands on the the real development environment, that's why I telling you why desktop CPU power is irrelevant in console space you don't even seem know what it takes to build a single triangle and yet you worry about CPU power that is the least important thing in modern game building.

That's why all games run on "weak" PS4/X1 will need a mulitpate times more powerful PC CPU/GPU to keep up. Use a desktop jugar class CPU to run those games and see what happen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloCamo View Post

Projecting it to 120fps is not the same as a true 120fps. 90fps is bare minimum, correct. What I am referring to is the current crop of ps4 visuals. These games that are 30fps without VR are not going to suddenly be running at 60fps let alone 90fps without major hits to the visuals. That is what I was talking about. People seem to honestly think gears of war, drive club, etc can just be ran in VR as if it's no problem. Go read some forums, people have high expectations out of a system that was weak in 2013.

.

No one said it's true 120fps and it's unimportant, time wrap it's their to enchance the feeling not to out power it, I don't see why it's important either, in the end of day, end user only care about the feeling on their side, all you need to know it's that every PS4 games will be 60/90fps bare minimum and looks great
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloCamo View Post

People seem to honestly think gears of war, drive club, etc can just be ran in VR as if it's no problem. Go read some forums, people have high expectations out of a system that was weak in 2013.
.

and yet, PC hardware requirement to keep up with standard consoles are on the raise, do some research because you come back,

I don't aware GOW is a VR title, as for drive club, you are still wrong on every count. You rely too much on personal assumption(even with 0 technical background)rather than actually trying to find out what's going on, I will do it for you this time ---->

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-hands-on-with-driveclub-vr

"Then we have performance. Not unsurprisingly, the game operates at 60 frames per second with asynchronous time-warp essentially 'upscaling' this to a full 120 fps as it reaches the headset. The results feel remarkably smooth"


Your logic is like thinking a bodybuilder can take on a MMA fighter because he got bigger gym muscle even you just saw him got knocked out secs ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloCamo View Post

Slowly shifting is correct. In the immediate future you need to realize that the jaguar cpu is a very real bottleneck for high frame rates. See the section above. I've got one. They are not powerful, and mine is clocked 800mhz faster. Blah blah, bare metal, four extra cores, etc. At best it slightly does better than mine in real world gaming, and that is not good, not good at all.
How so? Low textures impress you? 1080p impresses you? Low frame rates impress you? Cutting corners impresses you? Uncharted is the best looking movie on the system and yet there is plenty of corner cutting on that as well. Sure, it looks good for the hardware they have to work with, but it doesn't impress me in any way shape or form compared to the PC title's in front of me at 4k...
That is where I will give it credit. The screendoor effect after a few minutes went away for me, even on the oculus DK2. But I can see where it could be improved..

I don't feel like it's meaningful to argue with someone with no background in 3D rendering and tried to make a mountain out of mole hole from on unrelated hardware power from 2 different architecture , why would steady 30fps concerns me as long as it stays steady frame time range, I do play all multiplates on PC, I'd pick 4k 40-60fps highest setting over 1440P 60-90fps with compromise any day of the week, but 30fps on PC it's not the same, that said I'm more impressed by visual fluidity of The order 1866 and UC4, obviously these games are touched by material artist from Hollywood' CG team, which I haven't seen any games from PC.

As for VR, I tried Rift not impressed, the screendoor is totally killing the immersion I like vive, but the game library for PC VR are still at stone age.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloCamo View Post

However, my point being is that the psvr is likely the end all be all for Sony systems VR. The PC will continue to get newer versions with the updated hardware to support it getting cheaper and of course the newer hardware, faster.

Hardware is only a part of problem for PC VR, high price, under delivered games, set up hostile, divided platform between OR and ViVe, no long run strategics partner support from developers, in the end of day, consumers interest decide the winner in VR race, that's not the thing you need to worry about too much.
    
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post #42 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by CryphicKing View Post



It doesn't take an expert to spot you have 0 hr training in C++ and 3D engine architecture let alone algorithm. I do graphicial API integration for mobile/web app for a living, mostly light weight ones, in fact I have read documents of heavy weight API such as DX, Joni and OpenGl and hands on the the real development environment, that's why I telling you why desktop CPU power is irrelevant in console space you don't even seem know what it takes to build a single triangle and yet you worry about CPU power that is the least important thing in modern game building.

That's why all games run on "weak" PS4/X1 will need a mulitpate times more powerful PC CPU/GPU to keep up. Use a desktop jugar class CPU to run those games and see what happen.


No one said it's true 120fps and it's unimportant, time wrap it's their to enchance the feeling not to out power it, I don't see why it's important either, in the end of day, end user only care about the feeling on their side, all you need to know it's that every PS4 games will be 60/90fps bare minimum and looks great


and yet, PC hardware requirement to keep up with standard consoles are on the raise, do some research because you come back,

I don't aware GOW is a VR title, as for drive club, you are still wrong on every count. You rely too much on personal assumption(even with 0 technical background)rather than actually trying to find out what's going on, I will do it for you this time ---->

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-hands-on-with-driveclub-vr

"Then we have performance. Not unsurprisingly, the game operates at 60 frames per second with asynchronous time-warp essentially 'upscaling' this to a full 120 fps as it reaches the headset. The results feel remarkably smooth"


Your logic is like thinking a bodybuilder can take on a MMA fighter because he got bigger gym muscle even you just saw him got knocked out secs ago.


I don't feel like it's meaningful to argue with someone with no background in 3D rendering and tried to make a mountain out of mole hole from on unrelated hardware power from 2 different architecture , why would steady 30fps concerns me as long as it stays steady frame time range, I do play all multiplates on PC, I'd pick 4k 40-60fps highest setting over 1440P 60-90fps with compromise any day of the week, but 30fps on PC it's not the same, that said I'm more impressed by visual fluidity of The order 1866 and UC4, obviously these games are touched by material artist from Hollywood' CG team, which I haven't seen any games from PC.

As for VR, I tried Rift not impressed, the screendoor is totally killing the immersion I like vive, but the game library for PC VR are still at stone age.


Hardware is only a part of problem for PC VR, high price, under delivered games, set up hostile, divided platform between OR and ViVe, no long run strategics partner support from developers, in the end of day, consumers interest decide the winner in VR race, that's not the thing you need to worry about too much.

I don't understand why you're arguing with someone who is right and who has only spoken to clear and obvious facts.

The PS4 is underpowered. The games are neutered to run at 30fps on the console, imagine how much will be cut back to hit 60/120 fps. The PS4 just doesn't have the juice. If it did, there would be no reason at all for Sony to make the new version of the PS4 that is much more powerful. I just can't imagine why you're acting defensive about this
post #43 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by CryphicKing View Post

It doesn't take an expert to spot you have 0 hr training in C++ and 3D engine architecture let alone algorithm. I do graphicial API integration for mobile/web app for a living, mostly light weight ones, in fact I have read documents of heavy weight API such as DX, Joni and OpenGl and hands on the the real development environment, that's why I telling you why desktop CPU power is irrelevant in console space you don't even seem know what it takes to build a single triangle and yet you worry about CPU power that is the least important thing in modern game building.

That's why all games run on "weak" PS4/X1 will need a mulitpate times more powerful PC CPU/GPU to keep up. Use a desktop jugar class CPU to run those games and see what happen.

Obviously you think you are above everyone here because you may have a background in development but this does not change the simple fact that the CPU even used as efficiently as possible is still extremely under powered. I'm not sure what there is to argue here.

If no one should worry about cpu power in modern gaming then why was my 4790k a big upgrade over my fx-9590? Next you are going to tell me the developers using Sony's Jaguar cpu are so talented they will make it perform faster than a 4.7ghz/5ghz FX 8 core.

I've got an A8-6410, aka a 2.4ghz Puma quadcore, the successor to the desktop jaguar cpu's. Aside from the gpu portion being far weaker than what is in the cpu and having four less cores it is clocked 800mhz higher. It is not fast. It can play the same games ps4 does fine at 30fps if it wasn't for the weak gpu portion. This is not a mystery, however it is still weak. Like I've said, even maximizing this cpu's potential still equates to a cpu far weaker than any half decent desktop quad core even with the bloat of your typical OS and background processes. Even on api's that are not like vulkan or dx12.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CryphicKing View Post

No one said it's true 120fps and it's unimportant, time wrap it's their to enchance the feeling not to out power it, I don't see why it's important either, in the end of day, end user only care about the feeling on their side, all you need to know it's that every PS4 games will be 60/90fps bare minimum and looks great

I don't see the world in 60fps emulated to 120fps. Higher actual frame rates matter to me. Even if using the oculus the fps drops below 90fps for a moment it ruins it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CryphicKing View Post

and yet, PC hardware requirement to keep up with standard consoles are on the raise, do some research because you come back,

Not entirely true at all. This is a very common misconception. Unlike the PC benchmarks which are often run in ultra settings the consoles if converted to pc settings are often using much lower details. AF is almost always lower which makes already often low res textures look like mud as one example. A 2500k and AMD 7970 (both from 2011) will easily match the ps4 and xbone graphics settings for the rest of those consoles life spans. Scropio and ps4pro will are outdated before they hit the shelves and I'm fully confident my pc with 2013 hardware will hang with them at the same settings with no issue as well. I've been on 4k with this 290x for near two years now. Matching the same frame rates and settings of the current systems is a joke.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CryphicKing View Post

I don't aware GOW is a VR title, as for drive club, you are still wrong on every count. You rely too much on personal assumption(even with 0 technical background)rather than actually trying to find out what's going on, I will do it for you this time ---->

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-hands-on-with-driveclub-vr

"Then we have performance. Not unsurprisingly, the game operates at 60 frames per second with asynchronous time-warp essentially 'upscaling' this to a full 120 fps as it reaches the headset. The results feel remarkably smooth"

Thank you for the link I will read over it. However, see above, emulated 120fps is still not the same regardless of how smooth it maybe perceived. I do not want emulation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CryphicKing View Post

Your logic is like thinking a bodybuilder can take on a MMA fighter because he got bigger gym muscle even you just saw him got knocked out secs ago.

Completely irrelevant. This isn't ps3 vs pc. The hardware architectures are closer than they have ever been. And when it comes to heavy lifting and needing brute power the weight lifter will always win. Cpu's aren't mma fighters, you either have the power to run something or you don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CryphicKing View Post

I don't feel like it's meaningful to argue with someone with no background in 3D rendering and tried to make a mountain out of mole hole from on unrelated hardware power from 2 different architecture , why would steady 30fps concerns me as long as it stays steady frame time range, I do play all multiplates on PC, I'd pick 4k 40-60fps highest setting over 1440P 60-90fps with compromise any day of the week, but 30fps on PC it's not the same, that said I'm more impressed by visual fluidity of The order 1866 and UC4, obviously these games are touched by material artist from Hollywood' CG team, which I haven't seen any games from PC.

You need to get off your high horse. Your background in developing free dime a dozen games on android does not qualify you as someone who can speak as if they are building games on DX12 let alone the consoles as well. You keep talking how these architectures are so different yet again, they are truly not far off.

And the fact that 30fps is not the same as 30fps on a console is laughable. What is possinly different about 30fps w/ vsync on a console vs 30fps w/ vsync on a pc.

Having seen the crap that comes out of Hollywood it scares me that you are impressed because some random artists have touched ps4 games. That doesn't make them any more impressive in anyway when it comes to the actual engine in play and the techniques used. Crysis 3 is 3 years old now and nothing on ps4 tops it from a technical standpoint. I'm not talking artistic, I'm talking technical. Artistic is subjective.
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post #44 of 100
Oh look, another console thread full of people who can't afford a PS4 are trying to tell us that we shouldn't be impressed by it rolleyes.gif

To Artev & SoloCamo

You keep saying that the PS4 is "underpowered" and trying to pass it off as a fact. Your claim, however, is relative, subjective. For example, both of your sig PCs are underpowered in my opinion. You're both only running a single 290x if I recall, while I'm running in XF. My opinion that your PCs are underpowered and holding back PC gaming is not something you can prove wrong because it's subjective.

Also, you can't seem to grasp the fact that the PS4 runs DIFFERENT SOFTWARE from the PC, so your claims and comparisons about the CPU and it's power are irrelevant.
post #45 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest2000 View Post

Oh look, another console thread full of people who can't afford a PS4 are trying to tell us that we shouldn't be impressed by it rolleyes.gif

To Artev & SoloCamo

You keep saying that the PS4 is "underpowered" and trying to pass it off as a fact. Your claim, however, is relative, subjective. For example, both of your sig PCs are underpowered in my opinion. You're both only running a single 290x if I recall, while I'm running in XF. My opinion that your PCs are underpowered and holding back PC gaming is not something you can prove wrong because it's subjective.

Also, you can't seem to grasp the fact that the PS4 runs DIFFERENT SOFTWARE from the PC, so your claims and comparisons about the CPU and it's power are irrelevant.

That's the single dumbest thing I've read on this site in a long time. A thread full of people who can't afford a ps4? LOL. My gpu from three years ago is faster than the ps4pro's and cost more than the entire ps4 new. Secondly, your pc is under powered compared to Titan XP's in SLI. Your comparison makes no sense as this is not a subjective topic. What was your point?

No one has said the gpu portion of the ps4 is underpowered. I am talking about the puma cpu in it. No software or developer magic is going to change that fact. This isn't about holding back pc gaming or console gaming this is about literally not hitting frame rate targets in situations that call for a strong cpu. I have a jaguar apu clocked 800mhz higher than what is in the ps4, even if the ps4 cpu somehow with that "developer to the metal magic" literally gave a 100% performance increase due to four more cores (yet having a 800mhz clock deficit) it would still be slow in cpu bound situations.

Best not to try and wave your e-peen especially with cards that are three years old and considering most tltles are a joke as far as support goes w/ CF or SLI.

The consoles are closer than ever to pc architectures and yet you all act as if they are on some magical platform. All I hear is "consoles are coded to the metal" blah blah blah. Well no amount of coding is going to make up for that large of a difference in brute force. A ps4 will never touch my just as old 290x at any resolution nor will it touch my 4790k. The ps4pro's gpu may come closer but again, no matter what magic they pull they will not be able to perform as well as a 4790k paired with a 290x when using a jaguar cpu.

The ps4 pro's 4k is already upscaled to 4k as you should know and it is still dealing with cut down settings.
Edited by SoloCamo - 10/6/16 at 11:01am
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post #46 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloCamo View Post

That's the single dumbest thing I've read on this site in a long time. And your pc is under powered compared to Titan XP's in SLI. Your comparison makes no sense as this is not subjective topic.

No one has said the gpu portion of the ps4 is underpowered. I am talking about the puma cpu in it. No software or developer magic is going to change that fact. This isn't about holding back pc gaming or console gaming this is about literally not hitting frame rate targets in situations that call for a strong cpu.

Best not to try and wave your e-peen especially with cards that are three years old and considering most tltles are a joke as far as support goes w/ CF or SLI.

Trust me, don't even go down this rabbit hole with him.. He'll ignore the content of your posts and insinuate you're a "masta race" fanatic who just hates consoles, and in this case you apparently can't afford one anyway. tongue.gif

Also not sure why so many are treating Sony as the under-dog taking on behemoths like Oculus.. I think they are forgetting that the others are the under-dog in comparison to Sony.

As expected Sony knocked it out the park with the actual headset, ergonomically and in terms of making it feel like a finished product. The only draw back is that it's stuck on the PS4, but by all accounts it holds up pretty damn well imo. It's just the tracking that's garbage in comparison, which unfortunately is pretty damn important.. The screen in PSVR is superior too (not in res but it's other aspects make up for it). It may end up coming to PC anyway, the more competition the better.

That's why I'm waiting for the gen2 units, Samsung are already making 4K VR panels and you can bet Sony will want to stay competitive and follow suite. OLED RGB 4K panels with improved lenses are going to make the current ones look trash, and will probably still end up cheaper than the Vive..
post #47 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloCamo View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest2000 View Post

Oh look, another console thread full of people who can't afford a PS4 are trying to tell us that we shouldn't be impressed by it rolleyes.gif

To Artev & SoloCamo

You keep saying that the PS4 is "underpowered" and trying to pass it off as a fact. Your claim, however, is relative, subjective. For example, both of your sig PCs are underpowered in my opinion. You're both only running a single 290x if I recall, while I'm running in XF. My opinion that your PCs are underpowered and holding back PC gaming is not something you can prove wrong because it's subjective.

Also, you can't seem to grasp the fact that the PS4 runs DIFFERENT SOFTWARE from the PC, so your claims and comparisons about the CPU and it's power are irrelevant.

That's the single dumbest thing I've read on this site in a long time. And your pc is under powered compared to Titan XP's in SLI. Your comparison makes no sense as this is not subjective topic.

No one has said the gpu portion of the ps4 is underpowered. I am talking about the puma cpu in it. No software or developer magic is going to change that fact. This isn't about holding back pc gaming or console gaming this is about literally not hitting frame rate targets in situations that call for a strong cpu.

Best not to try and wave your e-peen especially with cards that are three years old and considering most tltles are a joke as far as support goes w/ CF or SLI.

First of all, I consider my PC to be around mid-reange with a 4770K and XF 290x fully water-cooled, so no, I'm not waving my e status here at all, just pointing out that your PC is subjectively "underpowered" as an example of subjectivity and relativism, and that you can't factually prove that it isn't. Funny thing is, you're the one who started boasting about how superior your personal gamin experience over the PS4. And yes, your OPINION that the PS4 is "underpowered" is entirely SUBJECTIVE. And if you fail to understand and acknowledge that different software can utilize the same or different hardware vastly differently and with different techniques and levels of optimization, well... rolleyes.gif
post #48 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest2000 View Post

First of all, I consider my PC to be around mid-reange with a 4770K and XF 290x fully water-cooled, so no, I'm not waving my e status here at all, just pointing out that your PC is subjectively "underpowered" as an example of subjectivity and relativism, and that you can't factually prove that it isn't. Funny thing is, you're the one who started boasting about how superior your personal gamin experience over the PS4. And yes, your OPINION that the PS4 is "underpowered" is entirely SUBJECTIVE. And if you fail to understand and acknowledge that different software can utilize the same or different hardware vastly differently and with different techniques and levels of optimization, well... rolleyes.gif

So basically me saying a Pentium 4 is under powered is subjective. Got it.

If you can't understand the simple fact that no amount of techniques or 'levels of optimization" (dat developer to the metal magic) is going to change the fact that a jaguar cpu as a whole is still weak I don't know what to tell you. It will never even touch a i7 920 from 2008. But hey, ps4 is beast yolo.

Do you think I love calling the higher clocked quad core version of the ps4 cpu that is in my laptop weak? No, not at all. But it doesn't change reality. Again, even at 2.4ghz my puma cpu is weak. A 1.6ghz version with four more cores and better coding is not magically going to turn into into even a FX-4300 let alone equivalent to any remotely modern i7 or FX-8
Edited by SoloCamo - 10/6/16 at 11:18am
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post #49 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest2000 View Post

Oh look, another console thread full of people who can't afford a PS4 are trying to tell us that we shouldn't be impressed by it rolleyes.gif

To Artev & SoloCamo

You keep saying that the PS4 is "underpowered" and trying to pass it off as a fact. Your claim, however, is relative, subjective. For example, both of your sig PCs are underpowered in my opinion. You're both only running a single 290x if I recall, while I'm running in XF. My opinion that your PCs are underpowered and holding back PC gaming is not something you can prove wrong because it's subjective.

Also, you can't seem to grasp the fact that the PS4 runs DIFFERENT SOFTWARE from the PC, so your claims and comparisons about the CPU and it's power are irrelevant.


laugher.giflaugher.giflaugher.giflaugher.gifthumb.gif

holy cow dude.

1) I can afford a PS4, this pointless ad hominem is ridiculous and pathetic. If any of the current VR offerings were more than a novelty at this point, I would already own them (or have them pre-ordered.) I want VR to be awesome. I believe it is the future once certain technical limitations are fixed.

2) "You keep saying that the PS4 is "underpowered" and trying to pass it off as a fact." it is a fact. If it wasn't a fact, then Sony wouldn't be replacing it with a more powerful system less than 4 years into this console cycle. It was weak when it came out in 2013, it is weak now. It is not adequate for modern games. Take Dark Souls 3 for instance - it is, in my opinion, unplayable on PS4/Xbone because of the jittery frame pacing and 30 fps. It makes me sick and gives me a headache. When I move over to my PC (sorry, I only have 1 radeon 290x, but the fact I have a home built water cooled 6 core CPU and LED lights should impress you!) and get 60+ fps solid to use with my freesync monitor, and far better detail and graphics. A game that was unplayable on PS4 for me is butter smooth on my PC. That isn't a guess, that is a fact. The PS4 simply doesn't have the juice it needs for modern graphics.

3) one 290x maxes out every game on my ultra widescreen, going crossfire 290x is a waste of electricity with as much power as they suck down. I care about the environment, I'm sorry you don't. biggrin.gif

4) the PS4 is weak. Everyone knows it. It was outdated when it was released. Why do you care so much about it that you take it personally? The PS4pro may be adequate for the PSVR and since you're mr. money bags you can upgrade next year. Why such loyalty to a mediocre machine?
post #50 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloCamo View Post

So basically me saying a Pentium 4 is under powered is subjective. Got it.

If you can't understand the simple fact that no amount of techniques or 'levels of optimization" (dat developer to the metal magic) is going to change the fact that a puma cpu as a whole is still weak I don't know what to tell you. It will never even touch a i7 920 from 2008. But hey, ps4 is beast yolo.

Do you think I love calling the higher clocked quad core version of the ps4 cpu that is in my laptop weak? No, not at all. But it doesn't change reality. Again, even at 2.4ghz my puma cpu is weak. A 1.6ghz version with four more cores and better coding is not magically going to turn into into even a FX-4300.

My HTPC has a i7 930 @ 4ghz and a 7950. I originally built it over 6 years ago so i could game in the livingroom. It is more powerful than a PS4 without question. The same games run at higher settings and with better frame rates on the PC.
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