Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Hardware News › [TechCrunch] Sony packs more power into its compact cameras with the RX100 V and a6500
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

[TechCrunch] Sony packs more power into its compact cameras with the RX100 V and a6500 - Page 10

post #91 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedyVT View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpii View Post

It's not a myth, it is actually better. Bigger sensor = bigger pixels, and bigger pixels are better. Not to mention the crop factor! (or lack of a crop factor...). Full frame is full frame... pretty much everything else is less.

That's not to say that full frame is always better in every way. Bigger cameras, more expensive, etc... but there's a reason that pretty much every pro photographer shoots full frame the majority of the time.

People throw around the word crop factor with a really poor comprehension.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_factor

Should be enough to debunk the myth you've stated. So this is what happens lenses will allow light through, if you're using an appropriate lens for your model of camera you the focal length you will need needs to be shorter to achieve the same effect of or view range of a full frame censor. The same laws of physics applies to projectors. Only at the same focal length with the same lens does the cropping occur. The idea that it captures an image cropped is illogical. You just can't treat a 55mm lens the same way on an FF you would on a M43rd. 50mm ≠ 50mm full frame vs smaller censor, but it could with 70mm = 50mm. Just an exaggerated example.

Also in other words the second you throw a lens adapter or anything that extends the distance of the lens to the body you forfeit what that lenses' specified distance is anyway. You've just crop factored your FF, just a little bit.

Only reason FF is better and not equal to is when you can buy a 3K+ full frame body in cost assuring it's censor density is high, megapixels themselves do not scale well unless the censor matches it. A poor censor FF will not improve the quality purely because it's a FF. Some other reasons to choose FF over a smaller censor is to get a more shallower photo.


Speedy, you're really grasping at straws.

I understand that a 100mm f5.6 on Full Frame should produce the exact same exposure as a 50mm f2.8 on M4/3, lens equivalence works to a point, but you're fighting tooth and nail every time you want to achieve something like that, the quality standards on that lens have to be twice as good, and as Full Frame lenses get better eventually gathering equivalent detail will be impossible. It's just a losing battle in general terms.

These systems certainly have advantages in certain applications, like heat dissipation and 4K readout, and pixel density in focal length limited shooting, but in general terms you run into a lot of walls pretty quickly.
post #92 of 100
These RX100 cameras are still amazing. No cellphone will ever match it.
post #93 of 100
I guess no one watched the crop or crap video i posted if they believe FF is vastly superior than crop.

And please learn to spell sensor properly...that irked me haha
     
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel Core i5-3570K @ 4.2GHz Gigabyte Z77X-UD5H-WB EVGA GTX 670 FTW 2GB @ 1.3/7.1GHz 1.21V EVGA GTX 670 FTW 2GB @ 1.3/7.1GHz 1.21V 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Samsung Green DDR3 4X4GB @ 2.1GHz Samsung 850 Pro 2TB Samsung SpinPoint F4 EcoGreen 2TB HDD LG GH24NS72 DVD Rewriter 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
Swiftech H240-X Liquid Cooler Microsoft Windows 10 Pro 64-bit Dell Ultrasharp U2312HM E-IPS Dell Ultrasharp U2311H E-IPS 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Dell Ultrasharp U2311H E-IPS Logitech G15 Gaming Keyboard Rev 2 Seasonic X-750 80+ Gold 750W Rev 3 Corsair Carbide 500R Arctic White 
MouseMouse PadAudioAudio
Alienware TactX Gaming Mouse 5000DPI SteelSeries QcK Gaming Mousepad Edifier M3300SF 2.1 Speaker Set 54W RMS Logitech G930 7.1 Wireless Gaming Headset 
AudioAudioOtherOther
Sennheiser HD 650 Open-Ear Headphones Creative Sound Blaster E5 High-Res USB DAC/ Por... Logitech F710 Wireless Gamepad  Thrustmaster T-Flight Hotas X Flight Stick 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
Intel Core m7-6Y75 vPro Intel Graphics HD 515 DDR3L-1600MHz 8GB Samsung 960 Pro 1TB  
OSMonitorOther
Windows 10 Pro x64 Sharp IGZO 4K UHD touch Dell x Wacom active stylus 
  hide details  
Reply
     
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel Core i5-3570K @ 4.2GHz Gigabyte Z77X-UD5H-WB EVGA GTX 670 FTW 2GB @ 1.3/7.1GHz 1.21V EVGA GTX 670 FTW 2GB @ 1.3/7.1GHz 1.21V 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Samsung Green DDR3 4X4GB @ 2.1GHz Samsung 850 Pro 2TB Samsung SpinPoint F4 EcoGreen 2TB HDD LG GH24NS72 DVD Rewriter 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
Swiftech H240-X Liquid Cooler Microsoft Windows 10 Pro 64-bit Dell Ultrasharp U2312HM E-IPS Dell Ultrasharp U2311H E-IPS 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Dell Ultrasharp U2311H E-IPS Logitech G15 Gaming Keyboard Rev 2 Seasonic X-750 80+ Gold 750W Rev 3 Corsair Carbide 500R Arctic White 
MouseMouse PadAudioAudio
Alienware TactX Gaming Mouse 5000DPI SteelSeries QcK Gaming Mousepad Edifier M3300SF 2.1 Speaker Set 54W RMS Logitech G930 7.1 Wireless Gaming Headset 
AudioAudioOtherOther
Sennheiser HD 650 Open-Ear Headphones Creative Sound Blaster E5 High-Res USB DAC/ Por... Logitech F710 Wireless Gamepad  Thrustmaster T-Flight Hotas X Flight Stick 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
Intel Core m7-6Y75 vPro Intel Graphics HD 515 DDR3L-1600MHz 8GB Samsung 960 Pro 1TB  
OSMonitorOther
Windows 10 Pro x64 Sharp IGZO 4K UHD touch Dell x Wacom active stylus 
  hide details  
Reply
post #94 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILoveHighDPI View Post

Speedy, you're really grasping at straws.

I understand that a 100mm f5.6 on Full Frame should produce the exact same exposure as a 50mm f2.8 on M4/3, lens equivalence works to a point, but you're fighting tooth and nail every time you want to achieve something like that, the quality standards on that lens have to be twice as good, and as Full Frame lenses get better eventually gathering equivalent detail will be impossible. It's just a losing battle in general terms.

These systems certainly have advantages in certain applications, like heat dissipation and 4K readout, and pixel density in focal length limited shooting, but in general terms you run into a lot of walls pretty quickly.

I'm certain we will have more lens and sensor enhancement as we go move a long. If we can produce better parts for computers cheap and cheaper it only makes sense even lenses will get better and technically they have over time.
Edited by SpeedyVT - 10/8/16 at 10:27am
Power Tower
(22 items)
 
SteamBox
(9 items)
 
Doge Miner
(7 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Ryzen 1700X AX370-Gaming 5 AMD Radeon R9 200 Series G.Skill DDR4-2400 
RAMRAMRAMHard Drive
G.Skill DDR4-2400 G.Skill DDR4-2400 G.Skill DDR4-2400 Samsung 840 Pro 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
CX300 Crucial 480GB Toshiba 4TB Toshbia 4TB Western Digital Black 1TB 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
h110i Windows 10 42" LG TV 20" Digitizer ASUS 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Corsair Vengeance Mechanical Keyboard  850watt Vampire Gold Rated NZXT S340 Elite Corsair RGB FPS Mouse 
Mouse PadAudio
Borderlands Mousepad Realtek HD 
  hide details  
Reply
Power Tower
(22 items)
 
SteamBox
(9 items)
 
Doge Miner
(7 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Ryzen 1700X AX370-Gaming 5 AMD Radeon R9 200 Series G.Skill DDR4-2400 
RAMRAMRAMHard Drive
G.Skill DDR4-2400 G.Skill DDR4-2400 G.Skill DDR4-2400 Samsung 840 Pro 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
CX300 Crucial 480GB Toshiba 4TB Toshbia 4TB Western Digital Black 1TB 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
h110i Windows 10 42" LG TV 20" Digitizer ASUS 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Corsair Vengeance Mechanical Keyboard  850watt Vampire Gold Rated NZXT S340 Elite Corsair RGB FPS Mouse 
Mouse PadAudio
Borderlands Mousepad Realtek HD 
  hide details  
Reply
post #95 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by twitchyzero View Post

I guess no one watched the crop or crap video i posted if they believe FF is vastly superior than crop.

And please learn to spell sensor properly...that irked me haha

My phone keeps thinking I'm typing censor.....
Power Tower
(22 items)
 
SteamBox
(9 items)
 
Doge Miner
(7 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Ryzen 1700X AX370-Gaming 5 AMD Radeon R9 200 Series G.Skill DDR4-2400 
RAMRAMRAMHard Drive
G.Skill DDR4-2400 G.Skill DDR4-2400 G.Skill DDR4-2400 Samsung 840 Pro 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
CX300 Crucial 480GB Toshiba 4TB Toshbia 4TB Western Digital Black 1TB 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
h110i Windows 10 42" LG TV 20" Digitizer ASUS 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Corsair Vengeance Mechanical Keyboard  850watt Vampire Gold Rated NZXT S340 Elite Corsair RGB FPS Mouse 
Mouse PadAudio
Borderlands Mousepad Realtek HD 
  hide details  
Reply
Power Tower
(22 items)
 
SteamBox
(9 items)
 
Doge Miner
(7 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Ryzen 1700X AX370-Gaming 5 AMD Radeon R9 200 Series G.Skill DDR4-2400 
RAMRAMRAMHard Drive
G.Skill DDR4-2400 G.Skill DDR4-2400 G.Skill DDR4-2400 Samsung 840 Pro 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
CX300 Crucial 480GB Toshiba 4TB Toshbia 4TB Western Digital Black 1TB 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
h110i Windows 10 42" LG TV 20" Digitizer ASUS 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Corsair Vengeance Mechanical Keyboard  850watt Vampire Gold Rated NZXT S340 Elite Corsair RGB FPS Mouse 
Mouse PadAudio
Borderlands Mousepad Realtek HD 
  hide details  
Reply
post #96 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedyVT View Post


People throw around the word crop factor with a really poor comprehension.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_factor

Should be enough to debunk the myth you've stated. So this is what happens lenses will allow light through, if you're using an appropriate lens for your model of camera you the focal length you will need needs to be shorter to achieve the same effect of or view range of a full frame censor. The same laws of physics applies to projectors. Only at the same focal length with the same lens does the cropping occur. The idea that it captures an image cropped is illogical. You just can't treat a 55mm lens the same way on an FF you would on a M43rd. 50mm ≠ 50mm full frame vs smaller censor, but it could with 70mm = 50mm. Just an exaggerated example.

Also in other words the second you throw a lens adapter or anything that extends the distance of the lens to the body you forfeit what that lenses' specified distance is anyway. You've just crop factored your FF, just a little bit.

Only reason FF is better and not equal to is when you can buy a 3K+ full frame body in cost assuring it's censor density is high, megapixels themselves do not scale well unless the censor matches it. A poor censor FF will not improve the quality purely because it's a FF. Some other reasons to choose FF over a smaller censor is to get a more shallower photo.

 

No, no, no and no.

 

The focal length has to be shorter because you are cropping the frame. Not compressing it in any way, shape or form. You are cutting away the outer portion. You absolutely do not get the same image from using a 50mm on a full 35mm sensor than you do with a 28mm on an APS-C. That's not how optics work. You may get the same effective field of view, but the resulting level of compression and acceptable focus depth of field will be very different, simply because of how you are taking a bigger frame in front of you to then crop it so it fits the sensor you've got.

 

You link a Wikipedia article that you haven't even understood.

 

If you throw a lens adapter like you say, you don't crop anything. You adjust the distance from the flange to the sensor to match that of the original system. M42 35mm SLRs didn't have the same flange distance as Canon EF systems do, so that needs to be made to match. That's why adapter measurements have to be accurate to the hundredth of a millimeter.

 

You mention street prices, but you're forgetting the actual cost of producing the camera itself. There are no poor 35mm sensors simply because they are flagship models. You cannot shove a sensor that costs a fortune to produce into a cheap camera, that makes zero sense from an economic point of view. You use flagship sensors with flagship bodies so you can get the most out of them.

 

You don't get a shallower picture, you get a shallower usable depth of field. And that's just at the same aperture, because yet again, you need a shorter lens on a smaller sensor to get the same usable depth of field, and shorter lens, by their very concept, produce deeper depth of field than a longer lens. Close down the aperture and you'll get the same effect.

 

Or hell, just crop the picture.

   
AGP bencher
(14 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Ryzen R7 1700 Gigabyte GA-AX370-Gaming 5 Sapphire HD 6950 2GiB 2x8GB KFA2 HOF DDR4-3600 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Crucial MX100 256GB Seagate 600 Series 240GB Seagate 7200.14 2TB Samsung F3 1TB 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
EKWB Supreme HF XSPC Rasa GPU EK XT360 EK 4.0 
OSMonitorMonitorKeyboard
W10 Pro LG IPS235 LG E2250V KUL ES-87 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
SF Leadex II 650W Lian Li PC-A05NB Logitech G9 Xonar DX 
AudioAudio
SMSL SA-S3+Technics CB-250 Sennheiser HD555 
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
AMD A10-5700 Gigabyte F2A75M-HD2 G.SKILL Ares 2133 CL9 Hitachi 5K750 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Momentus .7 200GB Noctua NH-L9a Server 2012 R2 Standard AUO B156HW01 
PowerCaseOther
PicoPSU-80-WI-25V AIO Aluminium Handmade TP-Link Archer Something Something Wi-Fi AC 
CPUCPUCPUMotherboard
Core2Duo E6400 Core2Quad Q6600 Pentium Dual Core E5200 AsRock 4COREDUAL-SATA2 R2.0 
GraphicsRAMHard DriveOptical Drive
A dumpload of ancient AGP cards Kingston Value DDR2-667 CL4 2T @CL3 1T Seagate 160GB 7200.10 LG IDE DVD-ROM 
CoolingCoolingOSMonitor
Ghettomade CPU waterblock 49cc 2stroke engine copper radiator WinXP SP2 32bit ProView 17" 
PowerCase
Tacens Radix V 550W Ghetto aluminium bench 
  hide details  
Reply
   
AGP bencher
(14 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Ryzen R7 1700 Gigabyte GA-AX370-Gaming 5 Sapphire HD 6950 2GiB 2x8GB KFA2 HOF DDR4-3600 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Crucial MX100 256GB Seagate 600 Series 240GB Seagate 7200.14 2TB Samsung F3 1TB 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
EKWB Supreme HF XSPC Rasa GPU EK XT360 EK 4.0 
OSMonitorMonitorKeyboard
W10 Pro LG IPS235 LG E2250V KUL ES-87 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
SF Leadex II 650W Lian Li PC-A05NB Logitech G9 Xonar DX 
AudioAudio
SMSL SA-S3+Technics CB-250 Sennheiser HD555 
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
AMD A10-5700 Gigabyte F2A75M-HD2 G.SKILL Ares 2133 CL9 Hitachi 5K750 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Momentus .7 200GB Noctua NH-L9a Server 2012 R2 Standard AUO B156HW01 
PowerCaseOther
PicoPSU-80-WI-25V AIO Aluminium Handmade TP-Link Archer Something Something Wi-Fi AC 
CPUCPUCPUMotherboard
Core2Duo E6400 Core2Quad Q6600 Pentium Dual Core E5200 AsRock 4COREDUAL-SATA2 R2.0 
GraphicsRAMHard DriveOptical Drive
A dumpload of ancient AGP cards Kingston Value DDR2-667 CL4 2T @CL3 1T Seagate 160GB 7200.10 LG IDE DVD-ROM 
CoolingCoolingOSMonitor
Ghettomade CPU waterblock 49cc 2stroke engine copper radiator WinXP SP2 32bit ProView 17" 
PowerCase
Tacens Radix V 550W Ghetto aluminium bench 
  hide details  
Reply
post #97 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedyVT View Post

People throw around the word crop factor with a really poor comprehension.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_factor

Should be enough to debunk the myth you've stated. So this is what happens lenses will allow light through, if you're using an appropriate lens for your model of camera you the focal length you will need needs to be shorter to achieve the same effect of or view range of a full frame censor. The same laws of physics applies to projectors. Only at the same focal length with the same lens does the cropping occur. The idea that it captures an image cropped is illogical. You just can't treat a 55mm lens the same way on an FF you would on a M43rd. 50mm ≠ 50mm full frame vs smaller censor, but it could with 70mm = 50mm. Just an exaggerated example.

Also in other words the second you throw a lens adapter or anything that extends the distance of the lens to the body you forfeit what that lenses' specified distance is anyway. You've just crop factored your FF, just a little bit.

Only reason FF is better and not equal to is when you can buy a 3K+ full frame body in cost assuring it's censor density is high, megapixels themselves do not scale well unless the censor matches it. A poor censor FF will not improve the quality purely because it's a FF. Some other reasons to choose FF over a smaller censor is to get a more shallower photo.

I don't think you understand that to get the same field of view on a crop sensor camera vs a full frame one, the lens you use on that crop sensor camera will have been optically compromised compared to the FF one. I think you're missing the point a lot (and the 'laws of physics' that you mentioned...)

Also, it's spelled 'sensor', not 'censor' (that's something entirely different...)
My System
(16 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 5820K @4.4ghz Asus X99-S EVGA GTX680 2GB 32GB Crucial 2133MHz DDR4 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
120GB Samsung 830 | 120GB Samsung 840 EVO | 6TB... Noctua NH-D14 Windows 8.1 Achieva Shimian 27" 1440p 
MonitorPowerCaseAudio
Dell U2311h (Portrait) Corsair HX520 NZXT Phantom White Asus Xonar D2X -> Samson SR850 or HiFi 
  hide details  
Reply
My System
(16 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 5820K @4.4ghz Asus X99-S EVGA GTX680 2GB 32GB Crucial 2133MHz DDR4 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
120GB Samsung 830 | 120GB Samsung 840 EVO | 6TB... Noctua NH-D14 Windows 8.1 Achieva Shimian 27" 1440p 
MonitorPowerCaseAudio
Dell U2311h (Portrait) Corsair HX520 NZXT Phantom White Asus Xonar D2X -> Samson SR850 or HiFi 
  hide details  
Reply
post #98 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xuvial View Post

More importantly, it's often been said that the best camera is the one you have on you at the time. For most people that's a smartphone.

i disagree with this,

the best camera is the one that you have on you that can make the shot. more often then not phone cameras just dont cut it.

they dont offer the extra reach a zoom offers or low light capabilities of a proper camera
post #99 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedyVT View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILoveHighDPI View Post

Speedy, you're really grasping at straws.

I understand that a 100mm f5.6 on Full Frame should produce the exact same exposure as a 50mm f2.8 on M4/3, lens equivalence works to a point, but you're fighting tooth and nail every time you want to achieve something like that, the quality standards on that lens have to be twice as good, and as Full Frame lenses get better eventually gathering equivalent detail will be impossible. It's just a losing battle in general terms.

These systems certainly have advantages in certain applications, like heat dissipation and 4K readout, and pixel density in focal length limited shooting, but in general terms you run into a lot of walls pretty quickly.

I'm certain we will have more lens and sensor enhancement as we go move a long. If we can produce better parts for computers cheap and cheaper it only makes sense even lenses will get better and technically they have over time.

Sony is already using BSI, copper wiring and integrated ADC's on the latest Full Frame chips, it doesn't get much better than that.

Lenses are always getting better, but that also applies across the board. It looks like basically every lens manufacturer is undergoing a revolution of sorts right now.
post #100 of 100
Awesome. Sony uses some of the best sensors on the market with near true to life color reproduction. Their dSLRs are something else but I can't see myself selling my gear (hobby) to buy one. It means a lot of reinvesting in a new platform.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Hardware News
Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Hardware News › [TechCrunch] Sony packs more power into its compact cameras with the RX100 V and a6500