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[TH] Microsoft Windows 10 Build 14942 Increases RAM Usage - Page 10

post #91 of 94
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Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jagdtigger View Post

Correct me if im wrong but if i remember correctly if some app needs more memory the OS will discard some of this cache to make enough free memory for that app... rolleyes.gif

Windows doesn't always release standby memory when it should and doesn't always prioritize the use of standby memory the way I'd like.

The standby list priority is linked to process priority, which I suppose is a sensible default, but there are enough exceptions in practice where I'd like to see more independent control over this.

Additionally, the process of manipulating standby memory is not completely free of overhead or latency. This is rarely an issue, but heavy loads can significantly delay the modified page writer and zero page threads, which can sometimes tie up standby memory longer than expected, or even result in security issues.

Some included Windows apps have also had serious memory issues related to caching. For example, Windows 7's chkdsk, using the /r argument could easily lock up all free memory in the system as it read off a disk, and it wouldn't release it until complete. Apparently, this was by design, and it was completely idiotic as it rarely helped performance at all, even if all you wanted to do was scan a single drive, and it made scanning multiple drives at once, or doing any sort or multi-tasking, virtually impossible. The only workarounds were to use the 32-bit chkdsk, which would at least limit memory use to 4GiB per active scan, or to use a version pulled from an older OS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

You're going to have a bad bad day when we get into non-volatile RAM solutions...

I won't even put non-volatile main memory in any systems that doesn't have a reliable UPS and a failsafe to scrub the memory if a power failure is detected.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

But for today, Windows will give up that Cache instantly as soon as anything else wants it. There is no such thing as wasteful usage with RAM, only harmful, and it is not harmful. If Windows wants to cache itself entirely in my 64GB along with a few programs, go for it, the less it needs to talk to slower storage the better.

Window's standby cache is neither instantly able to release memory nor is it free from potential harm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

So why do you say Windows caching is bad, aside from you not liking it? How it it harmful to your system or performance?

I didn't say Windows caching is necessarily bad. However, I do feel it's generally excessive and too out of user control. More data is cached than necessary for good performance (as I can see by comparing app load and task switching time between recent versions of Windows and versions that predate the use of standby memory), and the performance of time critical tasks, and the security of some other tasks, can be negatively impacted by data being held in memory.

That... is not how non-volatile system memory works. You do not want to scrub your HDD on power failure, it's generally considered a bad idea. X-Point is a stepping stone to remove that layer, like NVMe removing the SATA layer.

Windows Cache doesn't use the entire system memory, it doesn't need to give it up instantly. It does give it up as soon as it is able however, poor wording on my part.

You can disable SuperFetch and WriteCache if you like, in any Windows version. Comparing to different versions of Windows is simply poor testing parameters as they run on different core systems entirely, like Win8 moving to a tickless system. And Jesus, on quick search, SuperFretch has been around since XP SP2, what versions are you comparing to?

Again I fail to see why more simply being loaded is bad, overkill or not.

Caching takes 16.7GB of my 64GB. All the other programs can use the other 40GB+ of free memory. There is no wait time preventing them from doing so.
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Do you have any hard data actually backing the performance claim? Random Access Memory as a concept would debunk it rather heavily by default unless it's actively in use, same as SSDs. SuperFetch scales to the system, it isn't going to max you out and I seriously doubt any program needing more than a few GB on a moments notice is truly time critical in any sensible meaning of the word. Your storage solution is going to be a much bigger bottleneck, and if it's already in RAM then it's a null issue.
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post #92 of 94
All i have to say is anniversary update is a disaster
post #93 of 94
Good thing this only applies to 3.5G+ devices. My little baytrail pc with 2GB would not like this biggrin.gif
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post #94 of 94
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Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

That... is not how non-volatile system memory works. You do not want to scrub your HDD on power failure, it's generally considered a bad idea.

That is how NV system memory works. Data stays in it while it's not powered, which is a huge security risk.

I don't have to wipe my drives, because they are encrypted. My system memory is not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

You can disable SuperFetch and WriteCache if you like, in any Windows version. Comparing to different versions of Windows is simply poor testing parameters as they run on different core systems entirely, like Win8 moving to a tickless system. And Jesus, on quick search, SuperFretch has been around since XP SP2, what versions are you comparing to?

I haven't mentioned SuperFetch, Prefetch, or the Windows write cache at all.

I'm talking about the standby and modified page lists, which is what the "cached" figure you see consists of.

https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/tims/2010/10/29/pdc10-mysteries-of-windows-memory-management-revealed-part-two/

Versions of Windows prior to Vista were more aggressive in evicting and zeroing pages, while more recent OSes have generally not freed up memory until requested.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Again I fail to see why more simply being loaded is bad, overkill or not.

Caching takes 16.7GB of my 64GB. All the other programs can use the other 40GB+ of free memory. There is no wait time preventing them from doing so.

More being loaded is bad for security. The bulk of my data and VMs are encrypted, but encryption keys and decrypted data are necessarily stored in memory. The less that is kept cached and the less time it remains cached, the less vulnerable it is.

Having a large standby list can also be bad for performance, in rare situations, if an app needs the bulk of system memory immediately.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Do you have any hard data actually backing the performance claim? Random Access Memory as a concept would debunk it rather heavily by default unless it's actively in use, same as SSDs.

I'm positive hard data would reveal an advantage in load and task switching times, if I decided to bench it, with large amounts of standby memory use.

However, I am already way past the point of diminishing returns for things like app load times with any modern SSD. So, if I cannot perceive a difference (and I cannot), having tons of data (some of which may constitute a grave security risk) sitting in memory does me more harm than good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

SuperFetch scales to the system, it isn't going to max you out and I seriously doubt any program needing more than a few GB on a moments notice is truly time critical in any sensible meaning of the word. Your storage solution is going to be a much bigger bottleneck, and if it's already in RAM then it's a null issue.

Superfetch is a separate issue. Windows 7 disables it by default if there is an SSD (and with good reason), none of the Server variants enable it by default at all, and I've habitually disabled it as wasteful since it showed up.

Superfetch is a far more overt waste than the basic Windows memory management scheme (which is mostly a security, not a performance, problem). It goes way beyond not evicting data from memory, but actively fills the standby lists with what it thinks I'll need. It's not very helpful for my usage patterns; the CPU, memory, and I/O overhead of it, as small as they are, are a net drain.
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