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Heavier mice --> lower sensitivity? (Hamiltonian vs Newtonian perspective)

12K views 22 replies 17 participants last post by  CorruptBE 
#1 ·
Discuss.

If you think solely in terms of total motion vs force, one would expect that adjusting to a heavier mouse require higher sensitivity.

But if we account for forced deceleration, then shouldn't we aim for equivalence in "uncertainty" for momentum/position? Which would lead to lower sensitivity.

(uncertainty in terms of sensitivity to variations in your muscle output, not in the QM sense)

I think the main problem is the fact that we don't exactly know how our muscle memory works (Servo model? Motor model? Combination of both?)

Anecdotally it feels like the latter is true, but I would like to hear what you guys think.
 
#3 ·
generally lower sensitivity means more accurate. Higher sensitivity means faster aiming, but it is not like you just go for the lowest possible sensitivity, its a balancing act with how quickly you need to aim and how important precision in aiming is. Lighter imo is more desirable than heavy because f = ma, so the smaller the mass, the faster you move/aim, with the same amount of force. Now if the question is if you are stuck with a heavy mouse, do you go with a high or low sensitivity, then i think you would go for a higher sensitivity than in the same circumstances but with a lighter mouse, but not by that much.
 
#4 ·
It doesnt really matter since higher sensitivity - slower moves but also higher accuracy required, inertia force will affect your mouse moves in the same % ratio regardless of mouse speed.
Lower weight should be better in every case (Einsteinian perspective)
 
#5 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel0731ex View Post

Discuss.

If you think solely in terms of total motion vs force, one would expect that adjusting to a heavier mouse require higher sensitivity.

But if we account for forced deceleration, then shouldn't we aim for equivalence in "uncertainty" for momentum/position? Which would lead to lower sensitivity.

(uncertainty in terms of sensitivity to variations in your muscle output, not in the QM sense)

I think the main problem is the fact that we don't exactly know how our muscle memory works (Servo model? Motor model? Combination of both?)

Anecdotally it feels like the latter is true, but I would like to hear what you guys think.
Yes, no.

General answers dont fit imo when talking about "heavy but still reasonable", i personally would never change my sensitivity if i use a heavier or a lighter mouse as it would crap me up more than the weight change. However Ive seen quite a few casual people that try to counter ultra slick surfaces and high sensitivities with higher weight, which imo is just a sign of a very bad/not fitting setup, but thats up to them.

As for thinking about it rationally, "thinking newtonian" is imo right, the uncertainty with high mass at high speeds is just a lot higher than just simply dealing with the uncertainty at low speeds with higher sensitivities, but then again it depends on the human(and the strain it would put on him) and the surface used in question. Which is also one of the reasons why i think that the generalization of low sens being more accurate and vice versa doesnt really apply in useage as it depends on the individual case.
 
#8 ·
if you have an extremely heavy mouse you're going to want a high sens

outside of pathological extermes? ymmv. heavy mice make friction more consistent because your hand's pressure has less effect on the normal coefficient (* proportionally speaking), but require more force to make the same movements (* because they're heavier)
 
#9 ·
Honestly I'm so confused by this thread and people throwing around physics terms. I'm honestly confused if the op knows what a hamiltonian is or who hamilton was and how what he is talking about related to that. Also I'm pretty sure this is more of a physiology or kinesiology or whatever question than a physics one.

The actual question of whether you should change sens based on weight to me boils down to whether or not a heaver object can be controlled better in small motions. I would say no so you shouldn't raise your sens, but I'm not an expert in kinesiology. As far as if you should lower it only if you are having trouble making precise enough motions due to the weight, but you are then basically handicapping yourself by using a heavy mouse 2-fold. Your movements will be slower both due to lower sens and higher weight.
 
#10 ·
The problem with heavier mice is I find it more difficult for micro-adjustments regardless of sens. They're fine for general sweeps (quickly reacting to a rear enemy via a 180 snap) but smaller/corrective movements are far more fluid with less weight. This is the same reason I can't play with a palm grip (I compensate for recoil using only my fingers and a bit of wrist).
 
#11 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximillion View Post

The problem with heavier mice is I find it more difficult for micro-adjustments regardless of sens. They're fine for general sweeps (quickly reacting to a rear enemy via a 180 snap) but smaller/corrective movements are far more fluid with less weight. This is the same reason I can't play with a palm grip (I compensate for recoil using only my fingers and a bit of wrist).
Which aligns with my argument of thinking in terms of momentum change rather than assuming ideal control
 
#12 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by chr1spe View Post

Honestly I'm so confused by this thread and people throwing around physics terms. I'm honestly confused if the op knows what a hamiltonian is or who hamilton was and how what he is talking about related to that. Also I'm pretty sure this is more of a physiology or kinesiology or whatever question than a physics one.

The actual question of whether you should change sens based on weight to me boils down to whether or not a heaver object can be controlled better in small motions. I would say no so you shouldn't raise your sens, but I'm not an expert in kinesiology. As far as if you should lower it only if you are having trouble making precise enough motions due to the weight, but you are then basically handicapping yourself by using a heavy mouse 2-fold. Your movements will be slower both due to lower sens and higher weight.
The question is whether or not it should be muscle power or muscle precision that should be kept invariant. Intuiting in terms of inertia seems to suggest the former, whereas starting with momentum change would hint at the latter. Note that the two perspectives, when examined rigorously, should result in the same conclusion provided that we know everything about the problem. It is the initial premise that deviates from each other, which is what I meant by Newtonian vs Hamiltonian.
 
#13 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel0731ex View Post

The question is whether or not it should be muscle power or muscle precision that should be kept invariant.
Why 'or'? Aside from all your buzzwords, really this is a matter of fine muscle control vs coarse muscle control. Humans use both.
---
To those others wondering if heavier mice should be lower sensitivity, this is pretty irrelevant. Mouse sensitivity vs. hand movement and whatever muscle memory that translates from that is based on the distance it takes to move an angle. For example, at 36cm/360, it takes 1mm per 1 degree moved. Any higher (sensitivity) than that and you're moving at less than a mm for a degree rotation in any fps/tps. Any lower (sensitivity) than that and you're moving at more than 1mm. Think about how small 1mm is and what 1 degree is. And then you'd hope that x millimeters your hand moves for whatever degree translates to proper muscle memory. There is a threshold based on genetics and whatever goal you are after.

Only plausible reason people adjust sensitivity from whatever cm/360 they are used to is based on vertical sensor position. Higher sensor position people would lower, and lower sensor position people would raise it.

+Weight is a detriment to control as it wastes hand effort in countering however much unnecessary weight the person's hand would have to counter or adjust to on start/stops. That hand effort wasted could be used to better control whatever (x)mm per degree the user wants to practice. This is why most people that are serious prefer lighter mice, however some people swear by heavier mice due to shaky hands or some sort of nervousness.
 
#14 ·
IME it works the other way around. You chose the weight based on sensitivity if anything.
Theory aside, real world scenarios showed me how high cpi players tend to like heavier mice.
It's more of a matter of how you apply pressure to move the mouse. Low sensers tend to want to move their hand freely and "put it where it's supposed to".
High sensers tend to follow the mouses weight around, a less "active" stopping if you will.
 
#15 ·
I think that smaller mice can be higher sensitivity because it has more fingertip bias and therefore relies on finger muscle motor control which have more precision, while larger mice are lower sensitivity because they rely on arm/shoulder/back musculature which have less precision but greater range of motion across pad.

I prefer mice to be lightweight regardless of size. I don't see any advantage to weight except when the cord moves and pushes the mouse.
 
#16 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximillion View Post

The problem with heavier mice is I find it more difficult for micro-adjustments regardless of sens. They're fine for general sweeps (quickly reacting to a rear enemy via a 180 snap) but smaller/corrective movements are far more fluid with less weight. This is the same reason I can't play with a palm grip (I compensate for recoil using only my fingers and a bit of wrist).
What really? I'm the complete opposite. Heaver mice makes it easier for me to do small adjustments, but lighter mice makes it easier for me to do large adjustments.
 
#17 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vario View Post

I think that smaller mice can be higher sensitivity because it has more fingertip bias and therefore relies on finger muscle motor control which have more precision, while larger mice are lower sensitivity because they rely on arm/shoulder/back musculature which have less precision but greater range of motion across pad.

I prefer mice to be lightweight regardless of size. I don't see any advantage to weight except when the cord moves and pushes the mouse.
This appears to be my experience as well, as I struggle to control my G Pro as effectively as I was with my G100s, and the G100s less so than my MiCO.
 
#18 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by the1freeMan View Post

IME it works the other way around. You chose the weight based on sensitivity if anything.
Theory aside, real world scenarios showed me how high cpi players tend to like heavier mice.
It's more of a matter of how you apply pressure to move the mouse. Low sensers tend to want to move their hand freely and "put it where it's supposed to".
High sensers tend to follow the mouses weight around, a less "active" stopping if you will.
Ok, so you're saying that on a mouse of your preferred shape, if it had the exact same shape and sensor position, but the only difference was lighter weight, you'd seriously make your sensitivity higher even if the cm/360 was the same, just because of the weight difference?

Please get one of those mice with weights inside and tell me how that works out for you.

Also I'd like to know more about those scenarios, because the scenarios I have seen are pros that use higher sensitivities use mice that are SMALL and with LOWER sensor positions, like kinzu and EC2-A. Hiko and f0rest do this. S1mple had to lower his sensitivity because zowie had higher sensor positions. None of this is an indicator of weight having to deal with anything, but maybe I'm just blind.
rolleyes.gif


Only player I know that says he likes heavier mice is n0thing, even with a low аѕѕ sensitivity, because he said something about stability, but he settled for ~90 grams and doesn't really prefer stuff that is post 100 grams.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vario View Post

I think that smaller mice can be higher sensitivity because it has more fingertip bias and therefore relies on finger muscle motor control which have more precision, while larger mice are lower sensitivity because they rely on arm/shoulder/back musculature which have less precision but
Smaller mice have a lower sensor position, and people can grip it more forwards, thus higher sensitivity. Bigger mice have a higher sensor position because the PCB needs to reach m1-3 buttons, and players lower sensitivity due to the extra mobility.
 
#19 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nilizum View Post

Ok, so you're saying that on a mouse of your preferred shape, if it had the exact same shape and sensor position, but the only difference was lighter weight, you'd seriously make your sensitivity higher even if the cm/360 was the same, just because of the weight difference?

Please get one of those mice with weights inside and tell me how that works out for you.

Also I'd like to know more about those scenarios, because the scenarios I have seen are pros that use higher sensitivities use mice that are SMALL and with LOWER sensor positions, like kinzu and EC2-A. Hiko and f0rest do this. S1mple had to lower his sensitivity because zowie had higher sensor positions. None of this is an indicator of weight having to deal with anything, but maybe I'm just blind.
rolleyes.gif


Only player I know that says he likes heavier mice is n0thing, even with a low аѕѕ sensitivity, because he said something about stability, but he settled for ~90 grams and doesn't really prefer stuff that is post 100 grams.
Smaller mice have a lower sensor position, and people can grip it more forwards, thus higher sensitivity. Bigger mice have a higher sensor position because the PCB needs to reach m1-3 buttons, and players lower sensitivity due to the extra mobility.
I don't get the fuss over sensor position and a lot of things said about it. Smaller mice with "lower" sensor position can easily end up with the sensor farther from the wrist. For example I use a g303 which is a pretty small mouse and the sensor position in my hand is what most would consider extremely high I'm fairly certain. Also you do realize S1mple and Hiko use the same mouse right?

Edit: Also what I'm trying to say isn't that sensor position in the hand doesn't matter, but that sensor position measured on the mouse doesn't at all determine the sensor position in the hand in any way shape or form.
 
#20 ·
didn't read anything in this thread but op

it depends on how much weight in your hand you move around by moving the mouse, but for me, i am most comfortable with the same sensitivity when using a heavier or lighter mouse, because the difference in weight is not significant compared to the weight of my hand.

but because of comfort, my preference is for as light as possible, without compromising balance or rigidity.
 
#21 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nilizum View Post

Ok, so you're saying that on a mouse of your preferred shape, if it had the exact same shape and sensor position, but the only difference was lighter weight, you'd seriously make your sensitivity higher even if the cm/360 was the same, just because of the weight difference?
.
No, I'm saying that high sensitivity (low cm/360) players who I've talked to and have good aim tend to like heavier mice.
I'm not necessarily talking counter-strike here, remember there are other games
smile.gif

Changing sensitivity because of mouse weight is suicidal, I'm saying: if anything it works the other way around.

Note: By sensitivity I mean... sensitivity: the product of mouse counts and in-game multipliers.
If I were to refer to in-game sensitivity alone, I'd call it: in-game sensitivity
smile.gif


Basically: if you were to add 10g to my current mouse I wouldn't change sensitivity, I'd change mouse
biggrin.gif
 
#23 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nilizum View Post

This is why most people that are serious prefer lighter mice, however some people swear by heavier mice due to shaky hands or some sort of nervousness.
After playing games competitively for 15 years (I stopped now that I'm nearing my 30's), I have to admit: I have never ever met a good or great aimer using a heavy mouse. From UT, Quake, CS, BF, ... from every clanmate or opponent I've played, anyone with half a decent aim had a light mouse or at least the lightest variant of that specific shape (MX518 vs G5 back in the old days) if the sensor performance allowed it.

And every time I met a player who was crazy smart but had mediocre aim and I asked what are you using: "Oh a G502 with all the weights"

I know this is mostly anecdotal but after ~15 years, one can start speaking of a pattern imo.

In the lower weight category (sub 90 grams), 10 grams isn't going to make or break a mouse for me, but when given the option to choose for the same quality, shape and performance, I will always go for the lower weight.

I also advised more casual players at work or school into buying lower weight mice such as Zowie's, etc and time and time again they always come back to me saying they've improved.

And for those who say "lift weights". It has nothing to do with that (I used to deliver furniture in the summers as a student to earn some extra cash). Aiming is both a fast and nimble action requiring precision. It makes sense to choose something that can be used both fast and gentle when needed.
 
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