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Xeb's Misadventures as a Data Recovery Engineer - Updated 4/11/2017 - Page 16

post #151 of 220
I just bought a couple Seagate 5TB Enterprise NAS drives (ST5000VN0001)... should I return them to Amazon and get something else? They were a great price and pretty well reviewed, but I'm still within my return window. What do you all suggest? This is mainly for a Linux software RAID for local storage. I do offsite and cloud backups, needed some more storage locally though.
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post #152 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald View Post

Of course, if one has their data properly backed up, then it won't matter if data can't be recovered from an SED that has gone bad.

It's still boggles my mind (or what passes for one) that people just can't understand that making and maintaining backups is so much more cost effective (and effective, period) than attempting to recover data after a drive failure (which is iffy at best). If people would just realize when they budget for data drives, they also need to budget for backup drives or some other reliable form of backup, people like Xeb would be out of work. But, due to ignorance (it's also amazing how many people still think RAID is a backup) or people just flat being cheap, Xeb doesn't have to worry about job security.

I once worked for a company that instead of getting a NAS, they got an external USB drive, hooked it up to a random computer, and shared it on the network. Of course it eventually got knocked off the edge of the desk it was on and stopped working. Lucky for them I backed it up every friday, as there was no backups being done at all before me. I wasn't hired in an IT position either- I was running CNC machines.

They would have lost at least a years worth of CNC programs and CAD models. Would have had to reverse engineer some of their own parts in order to make them again.
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post #153 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy9000 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald View Post

Of course, if one has their data properly backed up, then it won't matter if data can't be recovered from an SED that has gone bad.

It's still boggles my mind (or what passes for one) that people just can't understand that making and maintaining backups is so much more cost effective (and effective, period) than attempting to recover data after a drive failure (which is iffy at best). If people would just realize when they budget for data drives, they also need to budget for backup drives or some other reliable form of backup, people like Xeb would be out of work. But, due to ignorance (it's also amazing how many people still think RAID is a backup) or people just flat being cheap, Xeb doesn't have to worry about job security.

I once worked for a company that instead of getting a NAS, they got an external USB drive, hooked it up to a random computer, and shared it on the network. Of course it eventually got knocked off the edge of the desk it was on and stopped working. Lucky for them I backed it up every friday, as there was no backups being done at all before me. I wasn't hired in an IT position either- I was running CNC machines.

They would have lost at least a years worth of CNC programs and CAD models. Would have had to reverse engineer some of their own parts in order to make them again.

Thank you for posting that! I emphasizes a point many (actually, most) people fail to grasp: even backup drives can fail (although, technically, that external drive was not a backup). While using a single drive instead of a NAS was alright, not having in a safe location and not having it backed up was not, as you story pointed out. Even if it had been a NAS instead of a single drive, had the NAS been damaged in some way, such as a voltage spike or current surge, malware getting planted on it, user error, or some clumsy oaf knocking it to the floor, etc., and if it was the sole repository of data, the data would have been lost, even if the NAS had a RAID (all RAIDs above 0 do is provide redundancy that allows work to continue should one or more drives, the number depending on the kind of RAID, fail). Multiple backups that do not get connected to the computer except when updating the backup are essential. That way, if one backup drive should fail (I've had it happen), you will still have another one. Having multiple backups has saved my bacon (and data) and time more than once.
     
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post #154 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by lynxxyarly View Post

You don't see the good in having the encryption self contained on the drive, as opposed to having been loaded in the memory or the cpu of the host machine? Surely you jest, sir! I think SED are remarkable, and I wish more industries would use the feature. You wouldn't believe how much access a hacker has to encryption files via exploitation of the OS. By-pass the middle man and keep everything self contained.

How is that a bad thing?

Quite simple actually. Full Drive Encryption is 100% USELESS while the drive is powered on and accessible by the computer, regardless of the implementation. The encryption only becomes effective once the drive is removed from the computer, and upon such an event any decent O.S.-centric implementation will wipe the key from memory.

With that in mind, I see no reason for a drive to have an encryption mechanism built into its hardware (which I'm sure can also be explored with the right tools), which is why I see no value in them. For me, a software-based mechanism (LUKS for example) is better value. However, "horses for courses" as they say. smile.gif
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post #155 of 220
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LazarusIV View Post

I just bought a couple Seagate 5TB Enterprise NAS drives (ST5000VN0001)... should I return them to Amazon and get something else? They were a great price and pretty well reviewed, but I'm still within my return window. What do you all suggest? This is mainly for a Linux software RAID for local storage. I do offsite and cloud backups, needed some more storage locally though.
They are good drives really but I just hate Seagate from a recovery standpoint. It is not that they make bad drives but they do stupid crap that makes them more difficult than they have to be. As long as you have a backup it doesn't not matter what drives you use. As far as the Seagate NAS drives I really have not heard or seen anything bad about them. I think Seagate got their heads on straight and fixed the head issues that the DM series are notorious for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy9000 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald View Post

Of course, if one has their data properly backed up, then it won't matter if data can't be recovered from an SED that has gone bad.

It's still boggles my mind (or what passes for one) that people just can't understand that making and maintaining backups is so much more cost effective (and effective, period) than attempting to recover data after a drive failure (which is iffy at best). If people would just realize when they budget for data drives, they also need to budget for backup drives or some other reliable form of backup, people like Xeb would be out of work. But, due to ignorance (it's also amazing how many people still think RAID is a backup) or people just flat being cheap, Xeb doesn't have to worry about job security.

I once worked for a company that instead of getting a NAS, they got an external USB drive, hooked it up to a random computer, and shared it on the network. Of course it eventually got knocked off the edge of the desk it was on and stopped working. Lucky for them I backed it up every friday, as there was no backups being done at all before me. I wasn't hired in an IT position either- I was running CNC machines.

They would have lost at least a years worth of CNC programs and CAD models. Would have had to reverse engineer some of their own parts in order to make them again.
AND my point again about backups. You deserve a high five.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy9000 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald View Post

Of course, if one has their data properly backed up, then it won't matter if data can't be recovered from an SED that has gone bad.

It's still boggles my mind (or what passes for one) that people just can't understand that making and maintaining backups is so much more cost effective (and effective, period) than attempting to recover data after a drive failure (which is iffy at best). If people would just realize when they budget for data drives, they also need to budget for backup drives or some other reliable form of backup, people like Xeb would be out of work. But, due to ignorance (it's also amazing how many people still think RAID is a backup) or people just flat being cheap, Xeb doesn't have to worry about job security.

I once worked for a company that instead of getting a NAS, they got an external USB drive, hooked it up to a random computer, and shared it on the network. Of course it eventually got knocked off the edge of the desk it was on and stopped working. Lucky for them I backed it up every friday, as there was no backups being done at all before me. I wasn't hired in an IT position either- I was running CNC machines.

They would have lost at least a years worth of CNC programs and CAD models. Would have had to reverse engineer some of their own parts in order to make them again.

Thank you for posting that! I emphasizes a point many (actually, most) people fail to grasp: even backup drives can fail (although, technically, that external drive was not a backup). While using a single drive instead of a NAS was alright, not having in a safe location and not having it backed up was not, as you story pointed out. Even if it had been a NAS instead of a single drive, had the NAS been damaged in some way, such as a voltage spike or current surge, malware getting planted on it, user error, or some clumsy oaf knocking it to the floor, etc., and if it was the sole repository of data, the data would have been lost, even if the NAS had a RAID (all RAIDs above 0 do is provide redundancy that allows work to continue should one or more drives, the number depending on the kind of RAID, fail). Multiple backups that do not get connected to the computer except when updating the backup are essential. That way, if one backup drive should fail (I've had it happen), you will still have another one. Having multiple backups has saved my bacon (and data) and time more than once.
Bingo mil'lady.

Quote:
Originally Posted by parityboy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by lynxxyarly View Post

You don't see the good in having the encryption self contained on the drive, as opposed to having been loaded in the memory or the cpu of the host machine? Surely you jest, sir! I think SED are remarkable, and I wish more industries would use the feature. You wouldn't believe how much access a hacker has to encryption files via exploitation of the OS. By-pass the middle man and keep everything self contained.

How is that a bad thing?

Quite simple actually. Full Drive Encryption is 100% USELESS while the drive is powered on and accessible by the computer, regardless of the implementation. The encryption only becomes effective once the drive is removed from the computer, and upon such an event any decent O.S.-centric implementation will wipe the key from memory.

With that in mind, I see no reason for a drive to have an encryption mechanism built into its hardware (which I'm sure can also be explored with the right tools), which is why I see no value in them. For me, a software-based mechanism (LUKS for example) is better value. However, "horses for courses" as they say. smile.gif
I second this. How do you think I decrypt these drives? I grab Module 35 from their firmware, load it, pull the encryption key and image the drive. Derp. Not very secure now ain't it?
BitLocker on the other had... kill me please. Just... kill me.
 
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post #156 of 220
@thread

Happened across this video on YT. An interesting comment re: dust filtering @ 4:05.
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post #157 of 220
Thread Starter 
Yep. Drives are not hermetically sealed.
 
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post #158 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by parityboy View Post

@thread

Happened across this video on YT. An interesting comment re: dust filtering @ 4:05.

Well, that was interesting to watch. Thanks for sharing!
     
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post #159 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Xeb View Post

Yep. Drives are not hermetically sealed.

Unless they are the WD (under the HGST name) helium drives.
     
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Corsair AX760 Scratch built. Currently under construction at ... Logitech M525 El Cheapo Allsop hard plastic 
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Western Digital Black WD4003FZEX 4TB LG 12X BD-ROM 16X DVD-ROM 48X CD-ROM SATA Inter... COOLER MASTER GeminII S524 120mm Long Life Slee... Windows 7 Ultimate 
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3 x Asus VG248QE Vizio VO320E 32" TV Logitech G510s Corsair HX750W 
CaseMouseAudioAudio
Antec Two Hundred v2 Logitech M525 with Unifying Receiving Corsair SP2500 2.1 Speakers ASUS Xonar Essence STX Virtual 7.1 Channels 24-... 
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i7-5930K Haswell-e Asus X99-E WS/USB 3.1 Visiontek Radeon 7870 2GB with 6 miniDisplayports G-Skill Ripjaws 64GB (8x8GB) DDR4 2133 
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Samsung 850 EVO 4TB SSDs Samsung 950 Pro 512GB m.2 SSD boot drive Noctua NH-D15S Cpu cooler Win 7 Ultimate 
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Corsair AX760 Scratch built. Currently under construction at ... Logitech M525 El Cheapo Allsop hard plastic 
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i7-3930k ASUS P9X79 WS MSI R7850 Twin Frozr 2GD5/OC Radeon HD 7850 2GB... Monoprice 1x2 powered HDMI Splitter 
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Kingston HyperX 32GB (8 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDR... Western Digital WD Black WD2002FAEX 2TB 7200 RP... Western Digital WD Black WD2001FASS-0 2TB 128 GB Samsung 840 Pro SSD 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Western Digital Black WD4003FZEX 4TB LG 12X BD-ROM 16X DVD-ROM 48X CD-ROM SATA Inter... COOLER MASTER GeminII S524 120mm Long Life Slee... Windows 7 Ultimate 
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3 x Asus VG248QE Vizio VO320E 32" TV Logitech G510s Corsair HX750W 
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post #160 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Xeb View Post

Yep. Drives are not hermetically sealed.

I was more referring to him basically saying that the quality of filtration seems to have declined over the past few years.
Mythica
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Mythica
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Overclock.net › Forums › Components › Hard Drives & Storage › Xeb's Misadventures as a Data Recovery Engineer - Updated 4/11/2017