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post #661 of 965
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaker View Post

Extremely valid points but the crux of the matter is that NVIDIA cleaned wallets even with their stop-gap solution which was PASCAL. They reign supreme in a certain segment while AMD's plan, unchanged, does not offer an alternative and customers have one choice for maxed out triple AAA 4K gaming.

AMD should wake up and bring more to the table than just some slides tongue.gif.
AMD do not have the funds to just push out a stop gap solution to counter high end Pascal offerings, or they would have done so...contrary to popular belief, they have a bit more experience in business than arm-chair experts on a tech forum, and they cant just go and squander their meager GPU-division resources pushing out a stop-gap solution that may not even recoup and make them profits in the interim, which would then heavily impact the release of Vega...they are almost running on fumes at the moment, and cannot afford to deviate from their set path, regardless of what the market currently looks like, unfortunately.
post #662 of 965
Quote:
Originally Posted by i7monkey View Post

Why do they always have to be late with the flagship stuff?
Are you really so dense that you don't understand the difference between a corporation worth $13 Billion, and one such as AMD worth Multi-millions? NVIDIA has well over TEN times the R&D Money, and TEN times the Manufacturing money. Wow, its amazing how some people don't understand simple economics. NVIDIA can splurge any time they want, and AMD has to be extremely frugal and precise and super careful with their money. NVIDIA can afford to make mistakes such as HBC, but AMD can not afford to make any major mistakes. AMD is literally breathing monetary fumes, and couldn't be any closer to bankruptcy than they were last year. Its practically an engineering miracle what they have done already with Polaris and Ryzen with billions and billions and billions and billions less money than both Intel and NVIDIA.

Please try and show some sort of economic intelligence. Lets see you try and take on NVIDIA with your measly bank account, please. I'd like to see what kind of GPU you can design and release to the masses without NVIDIA's monstrous bank account to help you.
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post #663 of 965
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaker View Post

Extremely valid points but the crux of the matter is that NVIDIA cleaned wallets even with their stop-gap solution which was PASCAL. They reign supreme in a certain segment while AMD's plan, unchanged, does not offer an alternative and customers have one choice for maxed out triple AAA 4K gaming.

AMD should wake up and bring more to the table than just some slides tongue.gif.

Give them ten extra Billion dollars to match NVIDIA's bank account and they would.

By the way, Volta will also be dual memory supported with GDDR6 and HBM2 both supported natively. I think it is good that Volta is coming late, this way they get both 12nm and GDDR6 benefits because of it.
Edited by }SkOrPn--' - 4/26/17 at 3:43pm
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post #664 of 965
ATTENTION ALL POORLY INFORMED POSTERS IN THIS THREAD WHO THINK THEY KNOW WHAT 7nm 14nm OR 10nm MEANS:


When a company talks about a "#nm" lithography they're talking about the resolution at which they can accurately focus an image precisely enough to do multi-layer photolithography with vertical structures created through the image plane. They are NOT saying anything about the actual size of the electrical paths, switches, memory cups or other components actually created with that lithography. They're simply saying "we can create printed circuit paths using chemical etch photolithographic process with an accuracy of #nm


What this means is that the "finest resolution" that they can make is 7nm, but devices are full of all sorts of components that are larger than that and since they're talking about chemically etched photolithography they're also talking about limits of resolution of their chemical etching fluid possibly eating in at the sides of the print protected area.

For example: Pascal is apparently 20nm circuitry printed with a 14nm accuracy. There are 38nm components inside the 28nm chips in the R9 290X chip.

To put this in correct perspective, a Copper atom is ~140pm wide which means that a 7nm wide path is as wide as 50 copper atoms. (silicon is ~210)

And there's no guarantee at all that there are ANY 7nm components in IBM's 7nm process.

So the finest scale that can be achieved at 14nm is ~100 Copper atoms wide.

But THEN we get into the issue of all the elements in the chips being different sized little balls... Gold is ~166pm wide,

This link going to webelements.com is for Tantalum and has a table of its VARIOUS diameters...

So within the structure of the chip, the materials have to be photolithographed into place in such a way that they WORK... not so that they're some tiny magical size.
post #665 of 965
Quote:
Originally Posted by prjindigo View Post

ATTENTION ALL POORLY INFORMED POSTERS IN THIS THREAD WHO THINK THEY KNOW WHAT 7nm 14nm OR 10nm MEANS:


When a company talks about a "#nm" lithography they're talking about the resolution at which they can accurately focus an image precisely enough to do multi-layer photolithography with vertical structures created through the image plane. They are NOT saying anything about the actual size of the electrical paths, switches, memory cups or other components actually created with that lithography. They're simply saying "we can create printed circuit paths using chemical etch photolithographic process with an accuracy of #nm


What this means is that the "finest resolution" that they can make is 7nm, but devices are full of all sorts of components that are larger than that and since they're talking about chemically etched photolithography they're also talking about limits of resolution of their chemical etching fluid possibly eating in at the sides of the print protected area.

For example: Pascal is apparently 20nm circuitry printed with a 14nm accuracy. There are 38nm components inside the 28nm chips in the R9 290X chip.

To put this in correct perspective, a Copper atom is ~140pm wide which means that a 7nm wide path is as wide as 50 copper atoms. (silicon is ~210)

And there's no guarantee at all that there are ANY 7nm components in IBM's 7nm process.

So the finest scale that can be achieved at 14nm is ~100 Copper atoms wide.

But THEN we get into the issue of all the elements in the chips being different sized little balls... Gold is ~166pm wide,

This link going to webelements.com is for Tantalum and has a table of its VARIOUS diameters...

So within the structure of the chip, the materials have to be photolithographed into place in such a way that they WORK... not so that they're some tiny magical size.

That's good info, which I personally didn't know. I always assumed it was the space between the transistors and the size of itself; and when it shrunk you fit more for the same space, and that equals higher IPC. I guess it's more complicated than that.
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post #666 of 965
Quote:
Originally Posted by steadly2004 View Post

That's good info, which I personally didn't know. I always assumed it was the space between the transistors and the size of itself; and when it shrunk you fit more for the same space, and that equals higher IPC. I guess it's more complicated than that.

...and everybody's all downers at AMD, a company that die shrunk from 438mm^2 to 232mm^2, kept pumping 250w through the device and gained 8% in Dx11 1080p Firestrike.

What that means is while nVidia "phoned it in" by using 14nm lithography to print a 20nm-lith-compatible generation revision of Maxwell(3) so accurately that they could nail huge clock speeds, AMD has literally doubled the efficiency of their component while reducing it to 50% its prior size (and only had to revise the circuit once).

Pascal is a fine achievement, don't get me wrong... but it's too conservative. I'm betting it was done because their actual next design wasn't even close to being functional as a GPU.



BRING OUT THE VEGA!
post #667 of 965
Quote:
Originally Posted by prjindigo View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by steadly2004 View Post

That's good info, which I personally didn't know. I always assumed it was the space between the transistors and the size of itself; and when it shrunk you fit more for the same space, and that equals higher IPC. I guess it's more complicated than that.

...and everybody's all downers at AMD, a company that die shrunk from 438mm^2 to 232mm^2, kept pumping 250w through the device and gained 8% in Dx11 1080p Firestrike.

What that means is while nVidia "phoned it in" by using 14nm lithography to print a 20nm-lith-compatible generation revision of Maxwell(3) so accurately that they could nail huge clock speeds, AMD has literally doubled the efficiency of their component while reducing it to 50% its prior size (and only had to revise the circuit once).

Pascal is a fine achievement, don't get me wrong... but it's too conservative. I'm betting it was done because their actual next design wasn't even close to being functional as a GPU.



BRING OUT THE VEGA!

Post 666 devil-smiley-019.gif

Agreed. AMD, just give us Vega. We're begging for it rolleyes.gif On a serious note: if Vega is 1080 Ti+ performance and significantly cheaper, I'll buy one. If it's 1080 performance and significantly cheaper, I'll take 2 biggrin.gif
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post #668 of 965
Quote:
Originally Posted by xioros View Post

Post 666 devil-smiley-019.gif

Agreed. AMD, just give us Vega. We're begging for it rolleyes.gif On a serious note: if Vega is 1080 Ti+ performance and significantly cheaper, I'll buy one. If it's 1080 performance and significantly cheaper, I'll take 2 biggrin.gif

Why would AMD sell Vega "significantly cheaper" than 1080 Ti, if it beats 1080 Ti? Which I doubt it will. But I hope so.

Looking back, AMD has always priced products "high" when they were actually able to compete. Athlon FX was not cheap. 7970 on release, was not cheap either.

I think Vega with HBM2 is going to be expensive, even if performance is lacking. Remember Fury X?

I hope AMD has Vega with GDDR5/X ready, to be able to compete with 1070 directly. If not there will be a huge gap between RX 580 and Vega, both performance and price wise.
Edited by Lass3 - 4/28/17 at 4:38am
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post #669 of 965
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lass3 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by xioros View Post

Post 666 devil-smiley-019.gif

Agreed. AMD, just give us Vega. We're begging for it rolleyes.gif On a serious note: if Vega is 1080 Ti+ performance and significantly cheaper, I'll buy one. If it's 1080 performance and significantly cheaper, I'll take 2 biggrin.gif

Why would AMD sell Vega "significantly cheaper" than 1080 Ti, if it beats 1080 Ti? Which I doubt it will. But I hope so.

Looking back, AMD has always priced products "high" when they were actually able to compete. Athlon FX was not cheap. 7970 on release, was not cheap either.

I think Vega with HBM2 is going to be expensive, even if performance is lacking. Remember Fury X?

Agreed, to some extend. But AMD has been pumping quite a bit of money in marketing. I wouldn't be surprised if they're going for market penetration and market share, rather than profit.
They know what their biggest market is the informed consumer. A consumer that didn't like getting milked by Nvidia and waits for their Holy Savior, called AMD. If it turns out that AMD is yet an other false prophet, those consumer might as well buy Nvidia.
AMD needs to put an attractive product on the market - even if it doesn't yield them that much profit (profit mostly comes from the enterprise anyway). Once they have gained a reasonable market share and brand presence, then they can start making profit of high volume.

I run a small PC assembly service and most of my customers come to me: "I want Nvidia". Many of them aren't even interested in AMD because they barely know the company. If AMD wants to get a good share on that market (which is way bigger than the custom built/informed consumer market), they need that brand awareness - which they get by offering a really appealing product and the attention that comes with it.

That said, I'm not an economist. This is merely what seems the most reasonable long term strategy.
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post #670 of 965
Quote:
Originally Posted by prjindigo View Post


To put this in correct perspective, a Copper atom is ~140pm wide which means that a 7nm wide path is as wide as 50 copper atoms. (silicon is ~210)

And there's no guarantee at all that there are ANY 7nm components in IBM's 7nm process.

So the finest scale that can be achieved at 14nm is ~100 Copper atoms wide.

That's really impressive that we've gotten to that point when you put it like that.
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