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[BBC] Tesla avoids recall after Autopilot crash death

8K views 216 replies 59 participants last post by  nakano2k1 
#1 ·
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Quote:
Tesla will not be ordered to recall its semi-autonomous cars in the US, following a fatal crash in May 2016.

The US National Highway Traffic Safety Administration closed its investigation after it found no evidence of a defect in the vehicle.
Quote:
The NHTSA report said data from the car showed that "the driver took no braking, steering or other actions to avoid the collision".

Bryan Thomas from the NHSTA said the driver should have been able to see the lorry for seven seconds, which "should have been enough time to take some action".
Source

So basically driver error caused the first fatal 'self driving' car accident. Kind of ironic really.

Anyway, this is good news for Tesla, and for everyone interested in autonomous vehicles.
 
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#3 ·
I'll stick with non-autonomous cars. I'm one of the best drivers there is in the world, I managed to get a sub-7 minute lap of the Nordschleife in a Honda Civic in Forza 4.

Note: The only road cars that could get a sub-7 minute lap is the Lamborghini Aventador SV and Porsche 918.
 
#5 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrews2547 View Post

I'll stick with non-autonomous cars. I'm one of the best drivers there is in the world, I managed to get a sub-7 minute lap of the Nordschleife in a Honda Civic in Forza 4.

Note: The only road cars that could get a sub-7 minute lap is the Lamborghini Aventador SV and Porsche 918.
You don't have to deal with traffic and the fear of death in a game. I think Top Gear did a test on the real Leguna Seca vs GT5, in the game you can drive like 10 second faster per lap. That said, If you can drive well in games, some of the skills will transfer to real life. That's why some GT academy drivers went on to become real race drivers.
 
#6 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by awdrifter View Post

You don't have to deal with traffic and the fear of death in a game. I think Top Gear did a test on the real Leguna Seca vs GT5, in the game you can drive like 10 second faster per lap. That said, If you can drive well in games, some of the skills will transfer to real life. That's why some GT academy drivers went on to become real race drivers.
I think you might need to RMA your sarcasm detectors
:p


I do think this is a big win for autonomous driving. Tesla should not be liable for idiotic owers' mistakes.
 
#7 ·
I saw this post by this black kid on youtube.. He was basically saying, there were issues with his car where it would not fully respond to his commands and the steering response/ throttle would change suddenly mid drive.

I think what's happening is due to the complexity of the programming and computations behind the current drive system, there are just too many bugs that can come up at the moment..

No one can predict all failure conditions given so many lines of code..
 
#8 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post

I saw this post by this black kid on youtube.. He was basically saying, there were issues with his car where it would not fully respond to his commands and the steering response/ throttle would change suddenly mid drive.

I think what's happening is due to the complexity of the programming and computations behind the current drive system, there are just too many bugs that can come up at the moment..

No one can predict all failure conditions given so many lines of code..
The YouTube guy had problems with power steering and the car would go into "safe mode" when it detected something was wrong so you don't carry on driving it unless absolutely necessary (such as taking it in to get it repaired), it was a hardware problem, not a software problem. The problem the guy has in the news article is that he was speeding and not paying attention.

Quote:
The NHTSA report said data from the car showed that "the driver took no braking, steering or other actions to avoid the collision".

Bryan Thomas from the NHSTA said the driver should have been able to see the lorry for seven seconds, which "should have been enough time to take some action".
 
#9 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrews2547 View Post

I'll stick with non-autonomous cars. I'm one of the best drivers there is in the world, I managed to get a sub-7 minute lap of the Nordschleife in a Honda Civic in Forza 4.

Note: The only road cars that could get a sub-7 minute lap is the Lamborghini Aventador SV and Porsche 918.
And this is why we need autonomous cars. Because some people actually think like this, and aren't sarcastic.
 
#11 ·
It's sad that society is so feeble minded now that they are afraid of other people doing menial things.

Can't wait for the future when automation really takes hold and has truly displaced humans. The riots alone will be a spectacle to watch!
 
#12 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheezman View Post

It's sad that society is so feeble minded now that they are afraid of other people doing menial things.

Can't wait for the future when automation really takes hold and has truly displaced humans. The riots alone will be a spectacle to watch!
Over 30,000 people are killed in the US by the "menial thing" of driving. About 95% of them are caused by human error.

You're damn right I'm afraid of people doing this "menial thing." And it has nothing to do with me being feeble-minded. You should be scared too, and if you aren't, might I suggest that your mind might not be so resilient as you'd like to think.
 
#13 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheezman View Post

It's sad that society is so feeble minded now that they are afraid of other people doing menial things.

Can't wait for the future when automation really takes hold and has truly displaced humans. The riots alone will be a spectacle to watch!
Don't bother. I've laid out plenty of reasons why autonomous vehicles are just another step in taking away any control we have in life and are not a good thing in the long term. But people are more than happy to trade the freedom to drive for a "safer" world.

The cars we have nowadays are so easy to drive it's really ridiculous. Go back 50 years and it was quite a bit harder, yet people somehow managed to do just fine. The commercials with "lane assistance" are further proof of the problem. People literally blame everything but themselves for, what is the biggest issue, not paying attention to the road.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

You're damn right I'm afraid of people doing this "menial thing." And it has nothing to do with me being feeble-minded. You should be scared too, and if you aren't, might I suggest that your mind might not be so resilient as you'd like to think.
Driving is extremely menial if you pay attention.

There are millions of ways to die, do you really want to live your life scared of everything? That's not living.
 
#15 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloCamo View Post

Don't bother. I've laid out plenty of reasons why autonomous vehicles are just another step in taking away any control we have in life and are not a good thing in the long term. But people are more than happy to trade the freedom to drive for a "safer" world.

The cars we have nowadays are so easy to drive it's really ridiculous. Go back 50 years and it was quite a bit harder, yet people somehow managed to do just fine.
Uh huh. Sure. Except here's actual data:



WAY more people died per year 50 years ago than they do today. 50,894 in 1966, and 35,092 in 2016.

The benefits to safety are real. When your selfish version of "freedom" causes the death of others, I start to have a problem with your opinions.
 
#17 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

Uh huh. Sure. Except here's actual data:



WAY more people died per year 50 years ago than they do today. 50,894 in 1966, and 35,092 in 2016.
Maybe I didn't word it correctly but it proves my point. Cars today are ridiculously easier to drive then older vehicles and the decline in deaths is mostly due to the build of the car itself, airbags, and all the myriad of safety precautions during a crash. Those old steel boats crumple and launch an engine into the driver compared to even a modern sub compact at the same rate of speed. Autonomous vehicles just literally take control out of your hand, they do not provide some magical safety.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DVLux View Post

I don't think all those manual car drivers had actual control when they crashed.
wink.gif
And even less had the mental control to even be driving in the first place.

So, functionally, they aren't taking away control...
They had complete control until they screwed up, someone else screwed up, hit ice, or the myriad of other reasons people crash.
 
#19 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloCamo View Post

But people are more than happy to trade the freedom to drive for a "safer" world.
I'm sorry, please explain why autonomous cars detract from 'freedom'.

Is it the same way that automatic transmissions, ABS, and parking sensors remove freedom? How about airbags, pre-tensioning seat belts, integral roll cages, safety glass, and a host of other improvements to the safety of vehicles?

Even ignoring the safety argument, I would love to be able to get into a car, direct it to my destination, and have a nap, read a book, make a phone call, or watch a movie. I would also love to have my car drop me off at an event, go park itself, and come pick me up when I'm ready. Or go out, have a few drinks, and be driven home safely. To me that sounds like freedom.

Yes, I realise we are a long way from what I just described, but it's coming.
 
#20 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

No, it completely DISproves your point. People didn't "do just fine."

People like you complained that seatbelt laws impinged on your freedoms. Cry me a river.
I am a firm believer in seat belts and plenty of safety features used during the event of a crash. That comparison is ridiculous at best.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GingerJohn View Post

I'm sorry, please explain why autonomous cars detract from 'freedom'.

Is it the same way that automatic transmissions, ABS, and parking sensors remove freedom? How about airbags, pre-tensioning seat belts, integral roll cages, safety glass, and a host of other improvements to the safety of vehicles?

Even ignoring the safety argument, I would love to be able to get into a car, direct it to my destination, and have a nap, read a book, make a phone call, or watch a movie. I would also love to have my car drop me off at an event, go park itself, and come pick me up when I'm ready. Or go out, have a few drinks, and be driven home safely. To me that sounds like freedom.

Yes, I realise we are a long way from what I just described, but it's coming.
Because people like you are naive and think it will be a choice in the future. If manual control cars aren't out right banned, they will be priced (by insurance alone) out of anyone's budget to force their hand in the new society of people who trade control for the illusion of safety because you have to think of the children.

None of what you listed takes away the fact that ultimately if I floor the car and tell it steer it somewhere, it goes there.
 
#21 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheezman View Post

It's sad that society is so feeble minded now that they are afraid of other people doing menial things.

Can't wait for the future when automation really takes hold and has truly displaced humans. The riots alone will be a spectacle to watch!
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloCamo View Post

Don't bother. I've laid out plenty of reasons why autonomous vehicles are just another step in taking away any control we have in life and are not a good thing in the long term. But people are more than happy to trade the freedom to drive for a "safer" world.

The cars we have nowadays are so easy to drive it's really ridiculous. Go back 50 years and it was quite a bit harder, yet people somehow managed to do just fine. The commercials with "lane assistance" are further proof of the problem. People literally blame everything but themselves for, what is the biggest issue, not paying attention to the road.
Driving is extremely menial if you pay attention.

There are millions of ways to die, do you really want to live your life scared of everything? That's not living.
Well, after you two have scraped brain matter off a highway, pulled a person out of a windshield, or had to tell a person their kid was just killed, we can come back and see how you guys feel.

EDIT:

Quick little mind warp for you; based off the many millions of miles of data we have on autonomous driving and human controlled driving. You would be safer driving in an autonomous vehicle without seat-belts, airbags, etc, than you would be in a human controlled vehicle with the best safety restraints.

Why?

In the scenario of the autonomous vehicle, it wouldn't be in the situation of having to use those devices. They wouldn't be in the accident to begin with.
 
#22 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloCamo View Post

I am a firm believer in seat belts and plenty of safety features used during the event of a crash. That comparison is ridiculous at best.
No, it's directly applicable.

People complained heavily when seatbelt laws were introduced. They didn't object to seatbelts, they objected to being pulled over for not wearing them. Because freedom.

And yet, they saved lives. Many lives. As you acknowledge.

Similarly, self-driving cars will also save lives. But you think they're going to be a bad thing because you think your freedom is being taken away.

Except that manual cars are still going to be available, because hobbyists like you will still want them. It's the rest of the idiots out on the roads who are going to buy them because it will, actually, make them safer as well as make everyone around them safer.

Your opposition, principled as it may or may not be, will cost lives by delaying the rollout of an important safety feature.

Be sure to say a prayer for all the dead children that should be on your conscience when you get behind the wheel of your "retro" manual-control car in twenty years.
 
#23 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloCamo View Post

The cars we have nowadays are so easy to drive it's really ridiculous. Go back 50 years and it was quite a bit harder, yet people somehow managed to do just fine. The commercials with "lane assistance" are further proof of the problem. People literally blame everything but themselves for, what is the biggest issue, not paying attention to the road.
Driving is extremely menial if you pay attention.
Yeah, now you pay attention. You're not alone in the road. Even if you pay attention there are other drivers making mistakes.

If you are stopped on your daily commute and someone rear ended you killing or leaving you paralyzed I bet you'd wish that he would have had some kind of drive assistant or full autonomous driving.

I make mistakes myself and I don't want to be the cause of an accident for myself or others.
 
#24 ·
Good. It wasn't Telsa's fault to begin with - it's a driving assistant, not an actual "autopilot."
They don't exactly do themselves any favors with the naming scheme, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

Well, after you two have scraped brain matter off a highway, pulled a person out of a windshield, or had to tell a person their kid was just killed, we can come back and see how you guys feel.
Appeal to emotion isn't the best way to argue a point, imo.
 
#25 ·
So based off the "maybe's" I should just not leave my house correct? This is a slippery slope you guys don't seem to see.

Exciting life to live. I tend to forget this board literally has no one that enjoys driving at all or at the very least doesn't want to give up the control to do so. And for that matter, I've known someone who got killed in an auto accident to someone else's error. This has in no way made me wish the control was taken away from those who are responsible. Again, you are punishing the many due to the few.
 
#26 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Butthurt Beluga View Post

Good. It wasn't Telsa's fault to begin with - it's a driving assistant, not an actual "autopilot."
They don't exactly do themselves any favors with the naming scheme, though.
Appeal to emotion isn't the best way to argue a point, imo.
Emotion is their point, though. They're objecting to the technology not because of a rational reason, but because of the alleged emotional damage to their "freedom" from the technology.

It is the only argument left, because they've already blinded themselves to the data.
 
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