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VRM on the new AM4 motherboards - Page 107

post #1061 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by chew* View Post

I said im done with you.

Run your system not your mouth.

Show the community your vast actual applied knowledge and not your abilty to copy paste knowledge

Ah, so you are an *******. Some people understand that providing citations help show they aren't just spewing worthless *opinions*. If someone challenges me, I will *verify* what I recall to be correct is in fact correct. If you are too lazy to do so, so be it. That is *your* shortcoming, not mine. Get used to it. On the other hand, when I check and find I am wrong I will admit as much. Unlike many others...

I will continue to provide *citations* so other can verify what I say rather than relying on personal arrogance.

Shooting the messenger is a fallacy of arguing and simply shows an underlying weakness in your position. But at least you are not alone here...
post #1062 of 1994
Thread Starter 
... Still going on I see. ^

Well Seems the Gigabyte Gaming 3 does have a little extra to give.

Seems I can pass Realbench with 4.0Ghz with 1.500V . @35min on 1 hour run.

I adjusted my VRM FAN and getting a little better temps.
Realbench 86C MAX.
    
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post #1063 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonMZW20 View Post

I think the Titanium is overpriced for what it offers and I have one (only because the Taichi was out of stock for a month or so). I got it for a decent price at $260, but I still think that's too much. I've rarely spent more than $200 for a mobo.

Anyway, it looks like MSI is going to pull a fast one on us, likely because they know the rev. 1.0 boards are **** compared to the competition (maybe someone saw this VRM thread?).

See my image here: http://imgur.com/CJKuG9H

Why are there already -002 and -02S models? These are distinct model numbers for new boards (at least, I think they are; do set me straight on that; B350 Mortar is 7A37-001, Mortar Arctic is -002, but the image shows the same Titanium name for all 3 models ... hmm). I know mine is a -001. I was reporting some temp and voltage reporting oddities to MSI when I stumbled upon this.

My VRMs are staying under 60C (with 2 200mm fans, top and side with 120mm exhaust) at 3.9GHz/1.35v, but still, was I disappointed? Yep. It's like they allocated all of their good VRM stock for Z270 Titanium boards. Lame. At the MSRP of $299, it better have the best components on the market.

If you're curious about the oddities I was reporting on, see them here: http://imgur.com/9WqWJXx

Lovely, right? Occurs after long idle overnight, since "stable" BIOS 1.4. CPU temp has completely dropped signal to mobo, thankfully it can be read directly. Fan signals are coming up at random when I only have 1 fan (CPU sense only). A lot of other voltage readings have dropped out at one point, and there are even some I haven't seen before. WITAF is this mess? So sloppy.


That will occur on a good many motherboards when they go into powersaving modes - my ASUS CHV-Z and Asrock 990 Extreme 3 for examples.

I'd only be upset if the revisions were of poorer quality - like the Gigabyte did with their 990 UD3's

I see the Tiachi and the Gigabyte K5's both showing higher VRM temperatures during prime 95 than my Titanium does, with lower voltages/clocks to boot. About the only way I could be happier with the Titanium is if it had an option for baseclock overclocking, which may be in the works.
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post #1064 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by cssorkinman View Post

[/U]

That will occur on a good many motherboards when they go into powersaving modes - my ASUS CHV-Z and Asrock 990 Extreme 3 for examples.

I'd only be upset if the revisions were of poorer quality - like the Gigabyte did with their 990 UD3's

I see the Tiachi and the Gigabyte K5's both showing higher VRM temperatures during prime 95 than my Titanium does, with lower voltages/clocks to boot. About the only way I could be happier with the Titanium is if it had an option for baseclock overclocking, which may be in the works.

Until you use the same chip in a variety of boards it can be rather inconclusive.

All silicon is unique.
post #1065 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOldTechGuru View Post

Ah, so you are an *******. Some people understand that providing citations help show they aren't just spewing worthless *opinions*. If someone challenges me, I will *verify* what I recall to be correct is in fact correct. If you are too lazy to do so, so be it. That is *your* shortcoming, not mine. Get used to it. On the other hand, when I check and find I am wrong I will admit as much. Unlike many others...

I will continue to provide *citations* so other can verify what I say rather than relying on personal arrogance.

Shooting the messenger is a fallacy of arguing and simply shows an underlying weakness in your position. But at least you are not alone here...

Never claimed im not an ahole.

Quite the contrary. Im a major ahole but i am damn good at what i do.

My personality has no impact on my skill.

Facts remain.

Over priced.

Cheaper quality parts. Lets forget about all other vendors and just compare titanium to titanium.

This one can not hold a candle to the rest of them in the vrm department.

This is an undeniable fact.

Msi makes great products. Lightning for example. If they made a lightning fury x and slapped a lightning sticker on a stock ref card i would be complaining about that to.

Lightning moniker means x anything less is disappointing.

Since i have worked with in the past and been one of the few sponsored by multi top tier all at the same time i cant tell you this.

Keeping the status quo stagnates.

Making waves innovates.

Want a better product? Then don't act satisfied with sub par quality.

Also i should add. I have the liberty of knowing behind closed doors info.While i may not be able to comment about it...once you know...kind of hard to forget the info.
Edited by chew* - 4/23/17 at 8:47am
post #1066 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by chew* View Post

Never claimed im not an ahole.

Quite the contrary. Im a major ahole but i am damn good at what i do.

My personality has no impact on my skill.

Facts remain.

Over priced.

Cheaper quality parts. Lets forget about all other vendors and just compare titanium to titanium.

This one can not hold a candle to the rest of them in the vrm department.

This is an undeniable fact.

Msi makes great products. Lightning for example. If they made a lightning fury x and slapped a lightning sticker on a stock ref card i would be complaining about that to.

Lightning moniker means x anything less is disappointing.

Since i have worked with in the past and been one of the few sponsored by multi top tier all at the same time i cant tell you this.

Keeping the status quo stagnates.

Making waves innovates.

Want a better product? Then don't act satisfied with sub par quality.

On top of that it seems MSI used cheaper parts across the board for the AM4 Platform, and on some of the lower end stuff no heat-sink on the SOC VRM with NIKOs is rather concerning.
Also on the ASRock AB350M Pro4 from the number of chokes it appears to have a 6 phase VCore VRM however the reality is its only a three phase so that is kinda sneaky in my opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nighthog View Post

... Still going on I see. ^

Well Seems the Gigabyte Gaming 3 does have a little extra to give.

Seems I can pass Realbench with 4.0Ghz with 1.500V . @35min on 1 hour run.

I adjusted my VRM FAN and getting a little better temps.
Realbench 86C MAX.

How are the SOC VRM Temps?
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post #1067 of 1994
Most importantly perspective matters.

For what you do? The board is probably more than acceptable.

For what i do?

20170423_121253_zpsxlz2psg7.jpg

Bet your hiney that i need to be concerned with every vendors vrm...

Like i said. I am really the only one here that has any stakes or right to complain in this thread at this point in time...
post #1068 of 1994
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhany View Post

How are the SOC VRM Temps?

Have had to do a few vcore increases as the 1hour fails. I did 59min and then I managed to stop the bench some way.
With some retries I've seen black screen fails at various points.

SoC VRM max @ 48C
Core VRM max @ 89C
Tdie max @ 73.5C (avg ~65-66C)

1.2125V + 0.300V offset = 1.500V under load. still have 30min left to go.

edit: passed 1hour. though fudged and the "data" for a screenshot went away.

cpu-z atleast: https://valid.x86.fr/vrh61z

Cinebench:

Edited by Nighthog - 4/23/17 at 10:24am
    
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post #1069 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by chew* View Post

Never claimed im not an ahole.

Quite the contrary. Im a major ahole but i am damn good at what i do.

My personality has no impact on my skill.

Facts remain.

Over priced.

Cheaper quality parts. Lets forget about all other vendors and just compare titanium to titanium.

This one can not hold a candle to the rest of them in the vrm department.

This is an undeniable fact.

Msi makes great products. Lightning for example. If they made a lightning fury x and slapped a lightning sticker on a stock ref card i would be complaining about that to.

Lightning moniker means x anything less is disappointing.

Since i have worked with in the past and been one of the few sponsored by multi top tier all at the same time i cant tell you this.

Keeping the status quo stagnates.

Making waves innovates.

Want a better product? Then don't act satisfied with sub par quality.

Also i should add. I have the liberty of knowing behind closed doors info.While i may not be able to comment about it...once you know...kind of hard to forget the info.

I actually have no issue with someone who can be an a-hole. Honestly, I find people who are advanced in a technical field tend to fall into that category more often, and I don't exclude myself.

What bothers me are unsubstantiated claims. Also mixing of terminology - "quality", "sub par", "performance". Do you need a Corvette engine in a VW Bug? I have not argued the Nikkos are the most efficient or "best", but I have made appropriate counter-claims related to their use in this design.

Buildzoid rated a number of AM4 VRM's but misquoted specs. His criteria (125c) is arbitrary and the "better" VRMs actually fail miserably at that temp. They simply aren't designed to run that hot. At lower temps they are much better. At 125c the *Nikkos are much better*. You can't take a single part outside of the design specs and properly consider it. I conceded that 125c was a poor and arbitrary temp, but that was *his* choice. When making a comparison at a given spec you need to be fair and consistent. But then this raised the question of how these parts are evaluated and the criteria being used.

At 50c (give or take) ANY of these VRM's should last forever. MSI obviously has a lot of experience with Nikkos. They had a lot of failures on their Z270 series boards based on some RMA reports. They may have simply decided to step back and design a VRM they *knew* would last while they worked out other issues. I really don't know. But at the price point you and everyone else is correct that they *could* have used any parts they wanted. I doubt they would intentionally under-design their flagship board. They opted for this design for a reason - and it happens to be working quite well. If it continues to achieve top overclocks AND remains reliable AND keeps temps below 40c around idle, low 50's in normal load and only hit 60c under extreme testing, what is the issue? That they could have used more expensive parts? Who the hell cares *if it works as intended*? That has been my point. I would complain *if I or others had actual issues* with the VRMs. If they do fail, I will complain loudly. I don't care for WiFi, dual audio subsystems, or most of that other crap. I simply want a board that will do as I ask of it and will last. Whether it will last remains to be seen. It's simply too early to judge. But if you google 'MSI X370 titanium failure' you just don't get much. "Issues" shows mostly BIOS growing pains. Do the same for any other board...

And as I mentioned, I prefer to provide citations so people don't have to take me at my word. I also prefer to cite specifications or research papers when I can find them, but some topics rely on other reviews - and you and I know those can be suspect and I will usually point that out as well.

People sneer at "Mil Spec", but MSI uses parts they have tested (or claim to at least) for longevity under tough conditions (there are actual Mil Spec guidelines for the ratings they claim to meet). Yes, so far I have to take them at their word. But that was a reason as well. Unless they simply lie, the components and build is intended for 7x24 use under tough conditions for an extended period. It may very well be why they haven't added as many "extras" like WiFi - maybe those ship sets won't cut it. You found your WiFi cuts out with a modest BLCK jump. Will it matter, I already said I don't know. Only time will tell.

I also already stated I think the Titanium is more reasonable around $260-275. Some would claim that is still too pricey, but I do place value on the build quality. Who cares about more layers in a PCB? Maybe those who mount large air coolers? I already mentioned numerous other benefits *with citations*.

If anyone wants to complain, provide something *real* you can demonstrate or cite specific to this board that is an issue. That shouldn't be difficult if there is an issue, should it? If you want to complain about the price, fine. Nothing wrong with that. But beyond that, *show me, don't tell me*.

If you can provide the pin outs for voltage measurement I would be more than happy to take actual reading with my DMM (it's a quality unit). I plan to pick up a laser-targeted IR thermometer to verify temps at multiple *specifically identified* locations - mosfets, chokes, caps, heatsinks, the board to put the temp doubts to bed. I agree the sensors could be off and I don't think any of us can confirm exactly what they are reporting on. I am all for sharing of information and getting to the truth. If temps end up being worse than reported, the truth will come out. If I can verify voltages, then maybe we can put that to rest as well. More information is *good*...

(edited for typos)
post #1070 of 1994
The on paper specs tbh never matter under the abuse i deliver.

Im brutal to hardware. I take precautions to eliminate user error which voids any chance of a legitimate rma unlike most who vaseline boards kill it with condensation anyway toss in a dishwasher to clean then rma...i dunno i was on air...
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