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VRM on the new AM4 motherboards - Page 134

post #1331 of 1994
The nikos 2plus1 combination dissipates heat better and has higher output capabilities. There are actual physical limitations and power requirements affecting the TI part in this case.
The nikos combo should indeed be slightly less efficient than the TI. That's less important since the difference is too small anyway to begin with and the input can supply enough power to the fet (the eps limit is high enough for that).

The TI part would be more than just "a little" better if the nikos were used in a 1plus1 configuration.


That behavior is pretty much why manufacturers nowadays tend to shy away from independent fets and seek parts with more integration.
post #1332 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by PsyM4n View Post

The nikos 2plus1 combination dissipates heat better and has higher output capabilities. There are actual physical limitations and power requirements affecting the TI part in this case.
The nikos combo should indeed be slightly less efficient than the TI. That's less important since the difference is too small anyway to begin with and the input can supply enough power to the fet (the eps limit is high enough for that).

The TI part would be more than just "a little" better if the nikos were used in a 1plus1 configuration.


That behavior is pretty much why manufacturers nowadays tend to shy away from independent fets and seek parts with more integration.

When you are at the levels of RDSon we are talking about, its a 20% difference. That is a large difference in heat output at high load, and the hotter a FET runs the less power it is capable of handling and the more heat it generates.

Thats actually why Niko Semi parts get a bad wrap. Thermal runaway is a thing. You have to de-rate their parts more than their competitors, so the specs in their datasheet don't really mean much.
Edited by KarathKasun - 5/2/17 at 1:08am
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post #1333 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarathKasun View Post

When you are at the levels of RDSon we are talking about, its a 20% difference. That is a large difference in heat output at high load, and the hotter a FET runs the less power it is capable of handling and the more heat it generates.

Thats actually why Niko Semi parts get a bad wrap. Thermal runaway is a thing. You have to de-rate their parts more than their competitors, so the specs in a datasheet don't really mean much.

Yeah, that's why I said that if you had the nikos in a 1plus1 setup instead of 2plus1 they would be more than "a little" worse. It's just that this particular 2plus1 setup ends up in a slightly better position.

It's not a matter of who's better. Each package has different characteristics.
post #1334 of 1994

It's not only the on state resistance... You also have lower gate charge which results in lower switching losses in both transistor and driver.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PsyM4n View Post


Yeah, that's why I said that if you had the nikos in a 1plus1 setup instead of 2plus1 they would be more than "a little" worse. It's just that this particular 2plus1 setup ends up in a slightly better position.

It's not a matter of who's better. Each package has different characteristics.

 

They all have overkill current handling capabilities. Our limits lie in heat output, not current handling. Thus efficiency, therefore waste heat becomes the limiting factor.


Edited by Artikbot - 5/2/17 at 1:16am
   
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post #1335 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post

They all have overkill current handling capabilities. Our limits lie in heat output, not current handling. Thus efficiency, therefore waste heat becomes the limiting factor.

Smaller packages have a harder time dissipating heat, some manufacturers make packages with metal on both sides of the package to help with heat dissipation. A lot of variable take place.

I'm quite sure that if you compare the asus prime with the msi titanium, the msi will have slightly better behavior on the vrm.
post #1336 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by PsyM4n View Post

Smaller packages have a harder time dissipating heat, some manufacturers make packages with metal on both sides of the package to help with heat dissipation. A lot of variable take place.

I'm quite sure that if you compare the asus prime with the msi titanium, the msi will have slightly better behavior on the vrm.

Actually, this is not true. Larger packages have more plastic for the heat to transfer through and will result in a higher FET silicon temperature. The FETs with the best heat conductivity are the ones without a package, and they are tiny. Problem is that they are really fragile.
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post #1337 of 1994

While they have varying thermal conductivities (mostly in favour of the PowIR parts), you still have to dissipate said heat, both through the motherboard and the heatsink. Spreading the load over slightly bigger areas doesn't help that much in terms of drawing a conclusion between one board or another. They are mostly identical.

 

Heat generation is what our boards should mostly be judged on, And the MSI mitigates this by using a real heatsink.

   
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post #1338 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by PsyM4n View Post

What does that have to do with how good the parts on the vrm are? You're not making any sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by virpz View Post

Nikos= Hot Running Chinese budget fets. You don't like me saying that ? Prove me wrong !:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PsyM4n View Post

That's the opposite way of how a conversation works.

Whatever an individual claims is meant to be supported by facts, or when said facts are unavailable, at least some observations of the material in question.

When resorting to unsupported claims, name-calling, smearing, putdowns, personal attacks and the likes then you do not have a conversation. Best case scenario is that you have a childish argument in the form of "mine is bigger than yours", worst case is that you have someone trolling just to get reactions.

So, lets stick to facts and get the conversation going instead of using empty claims and phrases like "nikos fets are reaching 100 trillion celsius temperature, they melt everything they touch, make a hole on the ground, fall until they reach the center of the earth and as a result make the earth explode and get us all killed" or "some guy I know had an msi board with nikos fets and it gave him HIV".

It's not a matter of liking what you read or not. If you claim something, prove it and stop wasting everyone else's time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by virpz View Post

That's a conversation, prove me wrong but also let me try to help you with that...

There you have the datasheets. No absolute maximums, please.wackosmiley.gifthumb.gif

Nikos MSI fets
http://www.niko-sem.com/in/front/bin/home.phtml
http://products.niko-sem.com/images/product/148231008405971632.pdf
http://www.unikc.com.cn/UploadFile/products/2015710171838-PK616BA_REV1.0_20140220.pdf



Now, the TI fets used with the Taichi, Crosshair and even on the Prime.
http://www.ti.com/product/CSD87350Q5D/technicaldocuments
http://www.ti.com/general/docs/lit/getliterature.tsp?genericPartNumber=csd87350q5d&fileType=pdf


Figures, It is not a matter of me liking or not MSI/Nikos, it's just what the MSI X370 Titanium has to offer at $300 cost/benefit wise, it is how these fets are crap and cheap in their own datasheet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PsyM4n View Post

According to the documents you pointed to, the particular combination of nikos low and high side fets perform slightly better than the TI fets you pointed to. The numbers on these documents say so
Quote:
Originally Posted by virpz View Post

So, you are telling me that the combination of 1x PK616BA HS 2X PK632BA LS is slightly better than one CSD87350Q5D ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PsyM4n View Post

In theory, according to the spec-sheets.

Boy, oh boy.

You are missing the basics of Ohm's law, but hey. You did you fall into that trap like nobody else.

10/10
thumbsupsmiley.png: keep teaching.gif
post #1339 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarathKasun View Post

Actually, this is not true. Larger packages have more plastic for the heat to transfer through and will result in a higher FET silicon temperature. The FETs with the best heat conductivity are the ones without a package, and they are tiny. Problem is that they are really fragile.

The bottom of the package has metal. The more, the better. There are other packages where the top also has metal. Again the more, the better.
post #1340 of 1994

Don't get into silly more or less metal or plastic or whatever. Look at the datasheets. They exist for a reason.

   
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