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VRM on the new AM4 motherboards - Page 3

post #21 of 2867

I remember reading that when you posted it and while I don't disagree with your conclusions, it's always been the case with low-end Biostar. They're not as big a company as some of others so they don't have the resources to make a consistently solid stack. I've found from past experience that their 'best' boards were usually competitive a la http://www.overclockers.com/biostar-ta890fxe-motherboard-review/ . The caveat has always been that their low-end boards are not very good and better left to OEM's and such.

 

My interest is piqued. I'll happily play the guinea pig this time around as I like several boards thus far but am not overwhelmed by any. I'll try this out and see what comes out as we move forward.

     
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post #22 of 2867
Thread Starter 
Great info guys, just what I was looking for Thanks AlphaC and Undervolter!

Msi looking at the motherboard pictures we seem to see Nikos around the board where they are visible. Like around RAM and the unsinked mosfets around cpu for the cheaper boards. They look like Nikos comparing photos of other MSI boards. Though can't read the letters.

I'm guessing they are using a doubled 4-phase on the X370 Gaming Pro Carbon. As they have used before. Can't think they would go the extra mile to go true 8-phase on this board when all other iterations used doublers and Nikos with the various Gaming Pro Carbon boards.
They used the same layout for the the +2 section as the regular 4-phase ones. Easy enough to just double the 4-phase section.

Great info on the Gigabyte gaming 5. Was thinking they used the same lowRDS(on) as usual. But a 6+4phase powIRstage is much better. (that info wasn't there before)

Sadly only Gigabyte, Msi and Asus are available for me where I live at the moment. Would liked the Asrock Taichi.
    
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post #23 of 2867
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperZan View Post

I remember reading that when you posted it and while I don't disagree with your conclusions, it's always been the case with low-end Biostar. They're not as big a company as some of others so they don't have the resources to make a consistently solid stack. I've found from past experience that their 'best' boards were usually competitive a la http://www.overclockers.com/biostar-ta890fxe-motherboard-review/ . The caveat has always been that their low-end boards are not very good and better left to OEM's and such.

My interest is piqued. I'll happily play the guinea pig this time around as I like several boards thus far but am not overwhelmed by any. I'll try this out and see what comes out as we move forward.

By all means, i don't disagree. I also removed the thermal pad and posted a pic in the FX8300 owners thread and let's say that the pad wasn't in good conditions... However, i advice caution, because since Biostar is probably the most untested brand, weird things can emerge. Some BIOS settings were weird for me for sure.

Also, i bought that motherboard without any expectations for overclocking. Heck, i run undervolted. Yet, it throttled at 3.5Ghz!

Here's that motherboard, is sold from 86EUR min to 94EUR max, right now (i was an early adopter and grabbed it for 75EUR when it first landed in the first shop).

http://www.trovaprezzi.it/prezzo_schede-madri_biostar_ta970_plus.aspx

In my local Amazon, it sells for 94EUR:
https://www.amazon.it/Biostar-TA970-Plus-scheda-madre-attacco/dp/B00TWIPD9O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1488011301&sr=8-1&keywords=Biostar+TA970+plus


The Gigabyte 970 UD3P, can be found at 75 EUR and it goes all they way to 4.5Ghz

http://www.trovaprezzi.it/categoria.aspx?id=29&libera=Gigabyte+970+UD3P

For 84EUR, you can find the MSI 970 Gaming, that also overclocks.
http://www.trovaprezzi.it/categoria.aspx?id=29&libera=MSI+970+Gaming

For 100EUR, you have the ASUS Aura:

http://www.trovaprezzi.it/categoria.aspx?id=29&libera=ASUS+970+AURA

101EUR in Amazon: https://www.amazon.it/Asus-970-PRO-Gaming-Scheda/dp/B01A9GLESG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1488011361&sr=8-1&keywords=ASUS+970+AUra


Bottom line: I wasn't expecting any overclocking records, but what the heck, for a motherboard that is sold more than the Gigabyte 970 UD3P and currently in Amazon for 7 EUR less than the ASUS Aura, i would expect to NOT throttle at 3.5Ghz! biggrin.gif I mean, for 7 EUR more (going by Amazon prices), the Aura is leagues above it!

Bottom line: This might be a case of bad model, where it looks better than it is. It can happen. But, since here most people like extreme overclock, the same thing can happen to more costly boards. Meaning, it may look good, but overclock lower than the competition at comparable prices. So, caution is always a good thing, in products with dubbious performance. That's all i say. I am not saying that i KNOW that Biostar AM4 will be a bad deal. They may actually be a terrific deal out of a need to make a comback to the market. I just advice caution. Let the reviewers do the legwork for you.
Edited by Undervolter - 2/25/17 at 12:39am
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post #24 of 2867
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undervolter View Post

  Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
By all means, i don't disagree. I also removed the thermal pad and posted a pic in the FX8300 owners thread and let's say that the pad wasn't in good conditions... However, i advice caution, because since Biostar is probably the most untested brand, weird things can emerge. Some BIOS settings were weird for me for sure.

Also, i bought that motherboard without any expectations for overclocking. Heck, i run undervolted. Yet, it throttled at 3.5Ghz!

Here's that motherboard, is sold from 86EUR min to 94EUR max, right now (i was an early adopter and grabbed it for 75EUR when it first landed in the first shop).

http://www.trovaprezzi.it/prezzo_schede-madri_biostar_ta970_plus.aspx

In my local Amazon, it sells for 94EUR:
https://www.amazon.it/Biostar-TA970-Plus-scheda-madre-attacco/dp/B00TWIPD9O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1488011301&sr=8-1&keywords=Biostar+TA970+plus


The Gigabyte 970 UD3P, can be found at 75 EUR and it goes all they way to 4.5Ghz

http://www.trovaprezzi.it/categoria.aspx?id=29&libera=Gigabyte+970+UD3P

For 84EUR, you can find the MSI 970 Gaming, that also overclocks.
http://www.trovaprezzi.it/categoria.aspx?id=29&libera=MSI+970+Gaming

For 100EUR, you have the ASUS Aura:

http://www.trovaprezzi.it/categoria.aspx?id=29&libera=ASUS+970+AURA

101EUR in Amazon: https://www.amazon.it/Asus-970-PRO-Gaming-Scheda/dp/B01A9GLESG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1488011361&sr=8-1&keywords=ASUS+970+AUra


Bottom line: I wasn't expecting any overclocking records, but what the heck, for a motherboard that is sold more than the Gigabyte 970 UD3P and currently in Amazon for 7 EUR less than the ASUS Aura, i would expect to NOT throttle at 3.5Ghz! biggrin.gif I mean, for 7 EUR more (going by Amazon prices), the Aura is leagues above it!

Bottom line: This might be a case of bad model, where it looks better than it is. It can happen. But, since here most people like extreme overclock, the same thing can happen to more costly boards. Meaning, it may look good, but overclock lower than the competition at comparable prices. So, caution is always a good thing, in products with dubbious performance. That's all i say. I am not saying that i KNOW that Biostar AM4 will be a bad deal. They may actually be a terrific deal out of a need to make a comback to the market. I just advice caution. Let the reviewers do the legwork for you.

 

 

All very true. I'm trying not to take too many of my preconceptions from AM3+ in though, because in terms of quality boards across the lineup, only ASUS really shined. I think that's probably because they're the biggest vendor and thus have the most resources to expend on a socket that was considered, by vendors anyway, to effectively be DOA. We saw even MSI and Gigabyte and Asrock fail to be consistent with AM3+ so of course a smaller vendor would be even more likely to have cut a lot of corners.

 

I'm just bored with ASUS and the MSI Xpower Titanium just isn't inspiring me. The Taichi looks to be the best price/performance buy for sure, but since I anticipate changing boards anyway I'm personally going to roll the dice for nostalgia's sake. :2coolsmil I'm not too worried about it as I'm not expecting the world to begin with.

     
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post #25 of 2867
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperZan View Post

All very true. I'm trying not to take too many of my preconceptions from AM3+ in though, because in terms of quality boards across the lineup, only ASUS really shined. I think that's probably because they're the biggest vendor and thus have the most resources to expend on a socket that was considered, by vendors anyway, to effectively be DOA. We saw even MSI and Gigabyte and Asrock fail to be consistent with AM3+ so of course a smaller vendor would be even more likely to have cut a lot of corners.

I'm just bored with ASUS and the MSI Xpower Titanium just isn't inspiring me. The Taichi looks to be the best price/performance buy for sure, but since I anticipate changing boards anyway I'm personally going to roll the dice for nostalgia's sake. coolsmiley03.png I'm not too worried about it as I'm not expecting the world to begin with.

Yeah, at the end, every manufacturer cuts corners somewhere. Asrock in AM3+ was more about giving extra features. But most of the time, VRM and PCB were suffering. Gigabyte also used doublers, but otherwise construction wise it was better, but suffered in BIOS. MSI was a mixed bag.

Honestly, only yesterday i took the time to go a bit to Asrock and MSI websites. I liked in general Asrock's offerings for the fact alone that they put more copper in their motherboaords (they are now equal to the Gigabyte Ultradurable in AM3+). I also liked the MSI offerings and UEFI, but i always get worried about Nikos. The powerpak Nikos in AM3+ didn't behave badly, but the fact that in some cases melted the thermal pads, indicate that they still have heat issues. Also, the fact that even MSI never includes them in the "military class" thing and that nobody else uses them... At any case, i liked the B350 Tomahawk colours. For me, i wouldn't have need for x370. The Taichi i saw it, looks good in specs, but i don't like white colour on the motherboard, if i can avoid it. Anyway, not much problem for me. I don't plan to be early adopter. I hope Ryzen will run without issues in Win7 and go to Ryzen 2nd gen or, if i can't resist before than, buy when i am certain that there won't be a new stepping/revision of Ryzen 1st gen. My FX is plenty for now. But if Ryzen runs without hinderance in Win7, i will certainly buy them just because whatever comes after, won't run in Win7 normally. I will go for 8 core Zen for sure. Don't know if 1st or 2nd gen, but 8 core it will be. I actually like the idea of 65W 8 core. I think it will serve me well for years and allow me to drop fan rpm even further.

If i were to buy NOW, i would not preorder any motherboard. It's uncharted territory. By AM3 instinct, i would go to ASUS, Asrock, MSI, Gigabyte, Biostar, in that order. Normally i 'd put Gigabyte 2nd, but i fear the BIOS bugs. Like you said, this is based on preconceptions from AM3. Which is why i wouldn't preorder a motherboard.
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post #26 of 2867
https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/5vqsqp/ryzen_1700_oc_40ghz_but_only_in_a_top_tier_mobo/

Looks like you should really get a decent board for these Ryzen if you want to overclock biggrin.gif
post #27 of 2867

To be fair, Gibbo sells motherboards. :P Later in the originating thread he talks about the MSI Pro Carbon as being a 'high-end' board and MSI is well-known for using NIKOS components on boards in that price range. This tells me that Ryzen overclocking will be limited on phase-limited boards and boards with weak-link VRM but boards with decent components and good phase designs will overclock well. It's obviously a sliding scale and the absolute best components will overclock the absolute best, but that also costs and the vendor has to either cut corners elsewhere (features, PCB quality, etc) or charge more. I haven't yet seen a board I want to spend a bundle on yet. I'm sure they'll come in time, though.

 

Also, there isn't any Biostar available locally. I'm getting my hands on one, but only because my sister lives in New York. Really, though, overclocking will come down to what it always comes down to. Heat and power management. Every board that isn't like a Rampage or something makes compromises somewhere. Know your caps/chokes/MOSFETS and determine whether a board can handle what you're throwing at it.

     
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Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Biostar M200-240 240GB m.2 SATA SSD (Win) Samsung 850 Pro 256GB SSD (Linux) SanDisk Ultra II 480GB SSD (Games) Seagate 2TB SSHD (Storage) 
Optical DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
LG DVD RW Swiftech H220-X2 Swiftech Komodo RX-ECO Vega Water Block XSPC EX240 Rad 
CoolingOSOSMonitor
Gentle Typhoon 120mm x4 Ubuntu 17.10 w/ custom kernel Windows 10 Pro Pixio PX277 27" 1440p 144Hz DP-Adaptive Sync w... 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
JAR-OWL J1 Rainbow LED Mechanical SeaSonic X-Series 1050w Gold+ Corsair 760T Zowie FK1 
Mouse PadAudioAudioAudio
Razer Firefly Plantronics Rig 500e Gaming Headset Marantz Pro MPH-1 Monitoring Headphones S.M.S.L SD-793II Audio DAC + Headphone Amplifier 
Other
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Windows 10 40" Vizio HDTV HP Generic EVGA SuperNOVA NEX 650w 
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post #28 of 2867
So um, a Gigabyte AX370 Gaming 5 has good VRMs compared to Asus Prime?

Because that was my only option until a MC rep quickly went into the back and got me the Gigabyte board.

Just curious what the VRMs is on Asus Prime compared to Gigabyte.
     
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post #29 of 2867
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaC View Post

I would definitely say that Asrock X370 Taichi , Asrock X370 Fatal1ty Professional (same as Taichi with different coloring and NIC) or ASUS X370 Crosshair VI Hero are the ones to get based on preliminary specifications review. They're the only ones advertising NexFETs used (the CSD87350Q5D normally used is 40A).

Easy math:
Asrock X370 Taichi / Fatal1ty Pro: 16 phases x 40A (hypothetical) = 640 A , assuming that is all for CPU , in reality it might be 6+2 doubled so 12 x 40 = 480A , worst case would be 240A due to doubler
ASUS X370 Crosshair VI Hero : 12 phases x 40A = 480 A , since it's using a doubler worst case would be 240A , it may very well be a 4+2 PWM controller though

The rest of the X370 boards will be a luck of the draw.

For example:
Gigabyte GA-AX370-Gaming K7 : 6+4 PowIRstage (unknown amperage) ... on par with NexFETs if it's the 40+ amp ones (IR3553 = 40A, IR3556 = 50A, IR3550 / IR3555 = 60A), but it has less total phases
---> assuming IR 3555 = 60 A , max possible for CPU = 6 x 60A = 360A
---> assuming IR 3556 = 50 A , max possible for CPU = 6 x 50A = 300A
---> assuming IR 3553 = 40 A , max possible for CPU = 6 x 40A = 240A
Gigabyte GA-AX370-GAMING 5 : 6+4 PowIRstage (unknown amperage) ... on par with NexFETs if it's the 40+ amp ones (IR3553 = 40A, IR3556 = 50A, IR3550 / IR3555 = 60A), but it has less total phases
---> assuming IR 3555 = 60 A , max possible for CPU = 6 x 60A = 360A
---> assuming IR 3556 = 50 A , max possible for CPU = 6 x 50A = 300A
---> assuming IR 3553 = 40 A , max possible for CPU = 6 x 40A = 240A
" AX370-Gaming 5 features a 6+4 phase power delivery design equipped with 4th gen. IR® digital power controllers and 3rd gen. PowIRstage® ICs featuring Isense technology, which provides more precise current sensing accuracy. This helps evenly distribute the thermal loading between the PowerIRstage® ICs, preventing the overheating of each individual PowerIRstage®, resulting in longer lifespan and better reliability."

Asrock X370 Killer & X370 Fatal1ty Gaming K4 : 12 phases unknown mosfet type & amperage, 45A chokes , 12K black Nichichon capacitors
----> edit, Feb 24: from OCUK it is 8+4

ASUS Prime X370-Pro : 10 unknown phases (allegedly Digital)
MSI X370 Xpower Gaming Titanium: 10 unknown phases , if they're the Fairchild FDMF5823DC like on the X99S MPower then they can do 55A each ; MSI Z170A XPower Gaming Titanium Edition uses 60A IR3555 PowIRStages
MSI X370 Pro Carbon : 10 unknown phases
BIOSTAR X370 RACING GT7: 14 unknown phases

B350 contenders
Asrock B350 Pro4 & AB350 Gaming K4 (6+3 as per https://www.overclockers.co.uk/asrock-ab350-pro4-amd-b350-socket-am4-ddr4-atx-motherboard-mb-153-ak.html , https://www.overclockers.co.uk/asrock-ab350-gaming-k4-amd-b350-socket-am4-ddr4-atx-motherboard-mb-152-ak.html , https://www.overclockers.co.uk/asrock-ab350m-pro4-amd-b350-socket-am4-ddr4-micro-atx-motherboard-mb-154-ak.html) "Supports 95W Air Cooling"



If you're planning on maxing every clockspeed out, I'd wait for an Asus X370 Crosshair VI Extreme, Gigabyte X370 SOC Force, or Asrock x370 OC Formula. If the Ryzen CPUs are all they claim to be, then those boards should come in the near future if not before Zen+.

Those 16 phases are a beast, the Fatal1ty is now worth is name smile.gif
I wonder why they didnt release the OC-Formulas, I would expect the Taichi and Fatal1ty to use 12 and the oc 16...
post #30 of 2867
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadOver View Post

Those 16 phases are a beast, the Fatal1ty is now worth is name smile.gif
I wonder why they didnt release the OC-Formulas, I would expect the Taichi and Fatal1ty to use 12 and the oc 16...


Hi Guys

just saw this article accidentally .

I have no plan to build X370 OC formula for AM4 so far , AMD's binary source code limited lots possibility of overclocking .

But X370 Taichi is good for cpu clocking and 24/7 for sure .

X299 Oc formula will be next target .
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