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VRM on the new AM4 motherboards - Page 96

post #951 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOldTechGuru View Post

Ah, but the spec sheet for the CSD87350 shows it is limited to only 10 amps at 110c so his comparisons at 125c are extremely faulty. So in a "worse case scenario", the Taichi is actually worse than the MSI. Sure the CSD part performs better up until 90c, but he is the one setting the criteria. I would argue that the 125c condition is a faulty comparison point in either case, but if he is going to use it he needs to be consistent and not arbitrarily favor one part over another ignoring it's actual performance at *his* reference point.

I think some of us give the napkin math appropriate credit. As long as the bar tender keeps giving us credit..

He seems to generalize, so I don't agree that he's arbitrarily favoring one part over another. Being generously imprecise to all?

Man loves his reset switches etc . Figured he'd love the Titanium's big knob but nope. It really should go to 11!

Totally missing a marketing point MSI.


OH yeah, emphasis in quote mine. It's a faulty point everywhere if treating his napkin math as accurate .
post #952 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOldTechGuru View Post

Ah, but the spec sheet for the CSD87350 shows it is limited to only 10 amps at 110c so his comparisons at 125c are extremely faulty. So in a "worse case scenario", the Taichi is actually worse than the MSI. Sure the CSD part performs better up until 90c, but he is the one setting the criteria. I would argue that the 125c condition is a faulty comparison point in either case, but if he is going to use it he needs to be consistent and not arbitrarily favor one part over another ignoring it's actual performance at *his* reference point.

It's a fair comment. The Ti NextFETs do fall drastically past ~95C in terms of output. You would have system shutdown at 125C most likely. I'll concede that.


Now here's my response. Ok for your sake - let's say that 125C is faulty. The problem with the XPower though - If you have a less efficient Mosfet (Like in the XPower), you are far more likely to get high temperatures at the Mosfets to begin with.

Keep in mind that on the Asrock, not only do you have a more efficient Mosfet, you also have 12 phases (6 doubled really), so it's less likely to reach 125C or even 95C. By contrast, at any given current draw, I'd expect the XPower's Mosfets to run at a higher temperature.

The other issue though remains unresolved. Why would I pay $300 USD for the XPower with an inefficient 6 phase more likely to get to the 125C in the first place, versus $200 USD for the 12 phase Asrock? The Asrock is not perfect. I even posted Buildzoid's video saying the BIOS was not mature. Then again, neither is the MSI X370 XPower; there are people with BIOS issues. Both are immature. Yet the point still stands. There's no perfect motherboard - but why pay more for a board that offers fewer phases and is more likely to reach higher temperatures? The Asrock can be fixed with a more mature BIOS. The MSI has 6 phases - there's no BIOS update that will make it 12 phases. It's a hardware issue.

I'll also note that you have double the inductors. One of the most frequent way Mosfets fail is to overload the chokes. In the Asrock's case, the 6 phases doubled into 12 gives you 60A chokes so 720A worth of inductor capacity. On the MSI you have 6 inductors for the CPU - unless you are telling me the Ti inductors MSI uses can hold 120A each (doubtful - likely 60A as well), the extra phases also means double the inductors.

It's like when the pads melted causing VRM failure on MSI's older boards - the problem was partly the pads yes, but had the Mosfets been efficient, then the pads would never have melted down to begin with. Why? There would be less waste heat from a more efficient Mosfet. Plus in a situation like this, with double the phases, you are far more likely to be at optimal efficiency point in a derating curve, which means that the waste heat output is likely to be far less because each phase is less stressed.

Earlier I noted that the MSI had been beaten by the Gigabyte X370 K7. A $300 X370 XPower lost to a $210 X370 Gaming K7 in VRM temperatures. The X370 Gaming K5 has the same VRMs as the K7 and goes for $195. So really we're saying the XPower at $300 loses to a $195 board. Also, in the thermals, it lost to an 8 phase Asus X370 Crosshair. The Asrock has 12 phases of that same Mosfet. It would run even cooler and likely without the problem of a hot RAM VRM.




The point I have repeatedly made is that the X370 XPower is not a good value for the same reason that say, an Intel 6900K is not a good value now compared to the AMD 1700X. It also does not have anything cool that might justify its price. Older XPowers (Z87 and Z97) for example carried a PLX PEX 8747 which allowed for x16/x16 GPUs. Premium Intel Gigabyte boards still do, as does the Asus WS series, and I think the EVGA Classifieds do as well. They cost more, but they have features that justify their extra cost. An example of that would be the Gigabyte Z270X Gaming 9. Expensive, but with features that attempt to justify the costs. The X370 XPower does not have that. It does not have more phases than the competition, more SATA ports, anything like the PLX, no voltage checkpoints, and really not much to set it apart.

An expensive board is fine. There have always been halo products. An expensive board that does not justify its costs though is a terrible value.
Edited by CrazyElf - 4/18/17 at 1:58pm
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post #953 of 1994
You forgot that it has little black things on the sides of the PCI-E slots though.
post #954 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyElf View Post

It's a fair comment. The Ti NextFETs do fall drastically past ~95C in terms of output. You would have system shutdown at 125C most likely. I'll concede that.


Now here's my response. Ok for your sake - let's say that 125C is faulty. The problem with the XPower though - If you have a less efficient Mosfet (Like in the XPower), you are far more likely to get high temperatures at the Mosfets to begin with.

Keep in mind that on the Asrock, not only do you have a more efficient Mosfet, you also have 12 phases (6 doubled really), so it's less likely to reach 125C or even 95C. By contrast, at any given current draw, I'd expect the XPower's Mosfets to run at a higher temperature.

The other issue though remains unresolved. Why would I pay $300 USD for the XPower with an inefficient 6 phase more likely to get to the 125C in the first place, versus $200 USD for the 12 phase Asrock? The Asrock is not perfect. I even posted Buildzoid's video saying the BIOS was not mature. Then again, neither is the MSI X370 XPower; there are people with BIOS issues. Both are immature. Yet the point still stands. There's no perfect motherboard - but why pay more for a board that offers fewer phases and is more likely to reach higher temperatures? The Asrock can be fixed with a more mature BIOS. The MSI has 6 phases - there's no BIOS update that will make it 12 phases. It's a hardware issue.

It's like when the pads melted causing VRM failure on MSI's older boards - the problem was partly the pads yes, but had the Mosfets been efficient, then the pads would never have melted down to begin with. Why? There would be less waste heat from a more efficient Mosfet. Plus in a situation like this, with double the phases, you are far more likely to be at optimal efficiency point in a derating curve, which means that the waste heat output is likely to be far less because each phase is less stressed.

Earlier I noted that the MSI had been beaten by the Gigabyte X370 K7. A $300 X370 XPower lost to a $210 X370 Gaming K7 in VRM temperatures. The X370 Gaming K5 has the same VRMs as the K7 and goes for $195. So really we're saying the XPower at $300 loses to a $195 board. Also, in the thermals, it lost to an 8 phase Asus X370 Crosshair. The Asrock has 12 phases of that same Mosfet. It would run even cooler and likely without the problem of a hot RAM VRM.




The point I have repeatedly made is that the X370 XPower is not a good value for the same reason that say, an Intel 6900K is not a good value now compared to the AMD 1700X. It also does not have anything cool that might justify its price. Older XPowers (Z87 and Z97) for example carried a PLX PEX 8747 which allowed for x16/x16 GPUs. The X370 XPower does not have that. It does not have more phases than the competition, more SATA ports, anything like the PLX, no voltage checkpoints, and really not much to set it apart.

The Taichi has very good thermals, but reports I am seeing show the CH6 with worse thermal performance then the MSI and the Gigabyte having worse overall efficiency (not certain about thermals). If all you are going by is the FLIR imaging, I have yet to see *VRM* temps with the FLIR. The TweakTown review is fraught with poor methodology in how they went about that. All I can find are board sensor reports which are still not apples to apples. I have seen power utilization reports, and the ones measuring from the wall are the best but still inconsistent, bringing into question the methodology. Until BIOS issues settle down, I find any numbers suspect in the absolute bit ALL reports show all top boards performing more than well enough for any need and the MSI still seems to be holding the overclocking record...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Dbt_7FiD8hTo2uuOIKBE3ATCDRqVRpAHFsKnieEncv0/edit#gid=87938175
post #955 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyElf View Post

It's a fair comment. The Ti NextFETs do fall drastically past ~95C in terms of output. You would have system shutdown at 125C most likely. I'll concede that.


Now here's my response. Ok for your sake - let's say that 125C is faulty. The problem with the XPower though - If you have a less efficient Mosfet (Like in the XPower), you are far more likely to get high temperatures at the Mosfets to begin with.

Keep in mind that on the Asrock, not only do you have a more efficient Mosfet, you also have 12 phases (6 doubled really), so it's less likely to reach 125C or even 95C. By contrast, at any given current draw, I'd expect the XPower's Mosfets to run at a higher temperature.



They are both 6 phases doubled. No edge to taichi on phase count to vcore or soc.
Running at higher temperature assumes the waste heat stays in the components. It's generated sure, but it's not staying there. Titanium seems to be doing better than competition at removing it.
post #956 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOldTechGuru View Post

The Taichi has very good thermals, but reports I am seeing show the CH6 with worse thermal performance then the MSI and the Gigabyte having worse overall efficiency (not certain about thermals). If all you are going by is the FLIR imaging, I have yet to see *VRM* temps with the FLIR. The TweakTown review is fraught with poor methodology in how they went about that. All I can find are board sensor reports which are still not apples to apples. I have seen power utilization reports, and the ones measuring from the wall are the best but still inconsistent, bringing into question the methodology. Until BIOS issues settle down, I find any numbers suspect in the absolute bit ALL reports show all top boards performing more than well enough for any need and the MSI still seems to be holding the overclocking record...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Dbt_7FiD8hTo2uuOIKBE3ATCDRqVRpAHFsKnieEncv0/edit#gid=87938175

I think the one you want is this one

http://valid.x86.fr/nmikb9

That was the highest, on a 1700x no less. might not be checked but I've seen other high oc's that weren't manually validated.


Swapped positions on the flir again? Welcome to the flir is inconclusive camp. I've been here all along.
post #957 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by yendor View Post

I think the one you want is this one

http://valid.x86.fr/nmikb9

That was the highest, on a 1700x no less. might not be checked but I've seen other high oc's that weren't manually validated.


Swapped positions on the flir again? Welcome to the flir is inconclusive camp. I've been here all along.

Thanks. I had heard about it holding the LN2 record but couldn't find it...
post #958 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyElf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOldTechGuru View Post

Ah, but the spec sheet for the CSD87350 shows it is limited to only 10 amps at 110c so his comparisons at 125c are extremely faulty. So in a "worse case scenario", the Taichi is actually worse than the MSI. Sure the CSD part performs better up until 90c, but he is the one setting the criteria. I would argue that the 125c condition is a faulty comparison point in either case, but if he is going to use it he needs to be consistent and not arbitrarily favor one part over another ignoring it's actual performance at *his* reference point.

It's a fair comment. The Ti NextFETs do fall drastically past ~95C in terms of output. You would have system shutdown at 125C most likely. I'll concede that.


Now here's my response. Ok for your sake - let's say that 125C is faulty. The problem with the XPower though - If you have a less efficient Mosfet (Like in the XPower), you are far more likely to get high temperatures at the Mosfets to begin with.

Keep in mind that on the Asrock, not only do you have a more efficient Mosfet, you also have 12 phases (6 doubled really), so it's less likely to reach 125C or even 95C. By contrast, at any given current draw, I'd expect the XPower's Mosfets to run at a higher temperature.

The other issue though remains unresolved. Why would I pay $300 USD for the XPower with an inefficient 6 phase more likely to get to the 125C in the first place, versus $200 USD for the 12 phase Asrock? The Asrock is not perfect. I even posted Buildzoid's video saying the BIOS was not mature. Then again, neither is the MSI X370 XPower; there are people with BIOS issues. Both are immature. Yet the point still stands. There's no perfect motherboard - but why pay more for a board that offers fewer phases and is more likely to reach higher temperatures? The Asrock can be fixed with a more mature BIOS. The MSI has 6 phases - there's no BIOS update that will make it 12 phases. It's a hardware issue.

I'll also note that you have double the inductors. One of the most frequent way Mosfets fail is to overload the chokes. In the Asrock's case, the 6 phases doubled into 12 gives you 60A chokes so 720A worth of inductor capacity. On the MSI you have 6 inductors for the CPU - unless you are telling me the Ti inductors MSI uses can hold 120A each (doubtful - likely 60A as well), the extra phases also means double the inductors.

It's like when the pads melted causing VRM failure on MSI's older boards - the problem was partly the pads yes, but had the Mosfets been efficient, then the pads would never have melted down to begin with. Why? There would be less waste heat from a more efficient Mosfet. Plus in a situation like this, with double the phases, you are far more likely to be at optimal efficiency point in a derating curve, which means that the waste heat output is likely to be far less because each phase is less stressed.

Earlier I noted that the MSI had been beaten by the Gigabyte X370 K7. A $300 X370 XPower lost to a $210 X370 Gaming K7 in VRM temperatures. The X370 Gaming K5 has the same VRMs as the K7 and goes for $195. So really we're saying the XPower at $300 loses to a $195 board. Also, in the thermals, it lost to an 8 phase Asus X370 Crosshair. The Asrock has 12 phases of that same Mosfet. It would run even cooler and likely without the problem of a hot RAM VRM.




The point I have repeatedly made is that the X370 XPower is not a good value for the same reason that say, an Intel 6900K is not a good value now compared to the AMD 1700X. It also does not have anything cool that might justify its price. Older XPowers (Z87 and Z97) for example carried a PLX PEX 8747 which allowed for x16/x16 GPUs. Premium Intel Gigabyte boards still do, as does the Asus WS series, and I think the EVGA Classifieds do as well. They cost more, but they have features that justify their extra cost. An example of that would be the Gigabyte Z270X Gaming 9. Expensive, but with features that attempt to justify the costs. The X370 XPower does not have that. It does not have more phases than the competition, more SATA ports, anything like the PLX, no voltage checkpoints, and really not much to set it apart.

An expensive board is fine. There have always been halo products. An expensive board that does not justify its costs though is a terrible value.

Linky?
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post #959 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by br0da View Post

Go to the english forums they said. Discussions are filled with much more arguments there they said. rolleyes.giftongue.gif
While the bickering can be entertaining at times, it can also get downright redundant. upsidedwnsmiley.gif

On a related note. Is there any in-depth analysis on the MSI Gaming Pro Carbon's VRMs and/or compared it to any other boards? I'm actually more curious as to how it compares to the XPower.

I apologize if I had missed it somewhere.
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post #960 of 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by cssorkinman View Post

Linky?

It's the review with flir images as additional "proof". Later adopted to "prove" opposing claim. We hates it my precious, filthy Baggins thermal...
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