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[PCGamesN] New Windows 10 anti-bloatware update attempts to block installation of Win32 apps

8K views 119 replies 68 participants last post by  kzone75 
#1 ·


Quote:
In the upcoming 'Creators' update for Windows 10, Microsoft are planning to add a new feature which attempts to block the installation of bloatware on a person's computer. This new feature has Windows 10 throwing up a user warning whenever someone tries to install an app not bought via the Windows Store.

This sounds innocuous enough-Microsoft are just trying to protect Windows 10 users-but the problem arises from the message this warning box presents whenever someone tries to install a Win32 program for example. This warning has been added under the guise of keeping the PC "safe and reliable", framing non-Windows Store apps as somehow dangerous.
Source.

A touch of desperation and FUD and a healthy dose of gall.

But some people still believe that everything is fine and that Microsoft hasn't been trying to turn Windows into a walled garden since Windows 8.
 
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#2 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

But some people still believe that everything is fine and that Microsoft hasn't been trying to turn Windows into a walled garden since Windows 8.
I don't really have a problem with that, I think they are trying to make it more like OS X.
 
#3 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post


Source.

A touch of desperation and FUD and a healthy dose of gall.

But some people still believe that everything is fine and that Microsoft hasn't been trying to turn Windows into a walled garden since Windows 8.
While it certainly is questionable motivation I don't see it as an issue. The users that have an issue with it (like us) are also competent enough to disable or work around such annoyances. Now if they were to actually try and forbid the install then I'm with you.
 
#5 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianblessed View Post

While it certainly is questionable motivation I don't see it as an issue. The users that have an issue with it (like us) are also competent enough to disable or work around such annoyances. Now if they were to actually try and forbid the install then I'm with you.
It is an issue because this isn't what the Windows ecosystem is about. It's about an open to develop for platform. This fearmongering trying to lure people to the Windows Store is going to harm the ecosystem because Microsoft is going to cast a shadow of doubt on everything outside of their bubble for their own egotistical purposes. And note, not any other store. After all, wasn't there the argument that UWP is now fine because after a few initial updates UWP apps can now be distributed by any company outside of the Windows Store? So what is the argument?

If this was about security, the current system works already. Windows 10 (and XP SP2 and Vista and 7 and 8.1) asks before running anything and tells you where it came from and if it has a verified publisher; Windows 10 also has an Anti-virus built-in that can't be turned off (unless there is another one running); the system-wide SmartScreen functionality that, per the recommended install setting is on, sends information about every single file you try to install / run to Microsoft's servers to get feedback on whether it's secure and finally they have a search engine (not to mention the OS built-in Bing powered Cortana) that should give them a pretty good idea of what people search for on the Internet and should therefore scan and enhance the Defender application with that kind of feedback.

And then there are all the third party AV providers, security companies, security researchers, the whole community that tests software on a daily basis and keeps things safe.
 
#6 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianblessed View Post

While it certainly is questionable motivation I don't see it as an issue. The users that have an issue with it (like us) are also competent enough to disable or work around such annoyances. Now if they were to actually try and forbid the install then I'm with you.
It is an issue because this isn't what the Windows ecosystem is about. It's about an open to develop for platform. This fearmongering trying to lure people to the Windows Store is going to harm the ecosystem because Microsoft is going to cast a shadow of doubt on everything outside of their bubble for their own egotistical purposes. And note, not any other store. After all, wasn't there the argument that UWP is now fine because after a few initial updates UWP apps can now be distributed by any company outside of the Windows Store? So what is the argument?

If this was about security the current system works already. Windows 10 (and XP SP2 and Vista and 7 and 8.1) asks before running anything and tells you where it came from and if it has a verified publisher; Windows 10 has an Anti-virus built-in that can't be turned off (unless there is another one running); the system wide SmartScreen functionality that, per the recommended install setting is on, sends information about every single file you try to install / run to Microsoft's servers to get feedback on whether it's secure and finally they have a search engine (not to mention the OS built-in Bing powered Cortana) that should give them a pretty good idea of what people search for on the Internet and should therefore scan and enhance the Defender application with that kind of feedback.

And then there are all the third party AV providers, security companies, security researchers, the whole community that tests software on a daily basis and keeps things safe.
And yet 90% of my friend's/family's Windows computers are loaded with bloatware they installed from the internet. "Driver updaters", toolbars, fake AV, trashy torrent clients, random launchers, background updaters... And that's the more benign stuff.

Don't get be wrong, I don't like what M$ is doing here. But they do have a point
tongue.gif
 
#9 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by brucethemoose View Post

And yet 90% of my friend's/family's Windows computers are loaded with bloatware they installed from the internet. "Driver updaters", toolbars, fake AV, trashy torrent clients, random launchers, background updaters... And that's the more benign stuff.

Don't get be wrong, I don't like what M$ is doing here. But they do have a point
tongue.gif
No, they don't have a point. Why is their store better than anybody else's? Or reputable sites that self-publish and distribute? Why is the Steam / GOG Galaxy / Origin, etc, stores' executable going to receive such a warning upon installation? People with their smartphones filled with fake apps and apps with over the top permissions for what they need to do is everyday knowledge that should tell you that trying to pretend that a store owner is going to be a god-like gatekeeper of the Internet is a fantasy that only they believe in for PR purposes. They keep their stores filled with trash and only clean them up from time to time when pressured; in the meantime they can boast about how many millions of apps they have in their private Internet.

At the end of the day it's not worth it if it implies going too far in trying to paternalize people instead of teaching them good security habits - and accept the fact of life that some people simply will never learn.
 
#11 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post


Source.

A touch of desperation and FUD and a healthy dose of gall.

But some people still believe that everything is fine and that Microsoft hasn't been trying to turn Windows into a walled garden since Windows 8.
Who said they weren't trying to emulate Apple's very successful walled garden approach? Why should MS not be allowed to leverage the massive OS market share advantage they enjoy into a more profitable, proprietary format? I suppose they should just shun profits to make sure Windows is entirely open for everybody else to profit from? Come on man, they are in business to make $$$...
 
#12 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by brucethemoose View Post

And yet 90% of my friend's/family's Windows computers are loaded with bloatware they installed from the internet. "Driver updaters", toolbars, fake AV, trashy torrent clients, random launchers, background updaters... And that's the more benign stuff.

Don't get be wrong, I don't like what M$ is doing here. But they do have a point
tongue.gif
No they don't. Why is their store better than anybody else's? Or reputable sites that self-publish and distribute? Why is the Steam / GOG Galaxy / Origin, etc, stores' executable going to receive such a warning upon installation? People with their smartphones filled with fake apps and apps with over the top permissions for what they need to do is everyday knowledge that should tell you that trying to pretend that a store owner is going to be a god-like gatekeeper of the Internet is a fantasy that only they believe in for PR purposes. They keep their stores filled with trash and only clean them up from time to time when pressured; in the meantime they can boast about how many millions of apps they have in their private Internet.

And the end of the day it's not worth it if it implies going too far in trying to paternalize people instead of teaching them good security habits - and accept the fact of life that some people simply will never learn.
Oh, I know.

All I'm saying is Microsoft recognizes the bloatware problem, and like any other corporation eyeing Apple's yearly income statements, they believe the solution is another proprietary app store. I never said they're right... Lest we forget the last few storefronts they tried to push on Windows.

EDIT: Honest to god, I've had a nightmare about GWFL before. I don't think I'll ever trust an MS store.
 
#13 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by sKorcheDeArtH View Post

I doubt the intent is really "safety", but I don't really see it has a huge problem as every other device I own, including my Androids will do this exact same thing if you install from other than playstore.
The whole smartphone market has unfortunately been a dumbed down walled garden from almost the beginning, but that doesn't make it right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

Who said they weren't trying to emulate Apple's very successful walled garden approach? Why should MS not be allowed to leverage the massive OS market share advantage they enjoy into a more profitable, proprietary format? I suppose they should just shun profits to make sure Windows is entirely open for everybody else to profit from? Come on man, they are in business to make $$$...
You can't be serious. You're against net neutrality too? Let the big companies who got to a position of power thanks to net neutrality leverage that power in order to stay there by means of abolishing net neutrality, right?

Windows has the massive marketshare it has because of what it is, not because of what Mac OS is. And they used to rule the smartphone world too before they made a series of bad decisions. They let the walled gardens arise there like a disease and now it's almost impossible to get rid of them.
 
#15 ·
So this is UAC on steroids in paranoid mode with a metro skin stuck on it?
 
#16 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by HMBR View Post

I already have to disable so many things on a fresh windows 10 install, if they allow me to disable this warning it's another click
The problem is that if this catches on third party developers will be bullied by this shadow of distrust to make their software available only from the Windows Store. And then good luck trying to use Windows without a Microsoft account; that's a click you won't be able to make anymore, in practice.

On a related note, go to Firefox's site and look for the download link for Firefox for Android. They don't host it, they have a link to Google's store. But Android lets you sideload, right? Right.
 
#17 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

It is an issue because this isn't what the Windows ecosystem is about. It's about an open to develop for platform. This fearmongering trying to lure people to the Windows Store is going to harm the ecosystem because Microsoft is going to cast a shadow of doubt on everything outside of their bubble for their own egotistical purposes.
Microsoft is a business and like most businesses I don't believe they do anything for "egotistical" purposes.

They are clearly trying to mimic the highly successful model that Apple has been using. Create a platform which developers can use to sell software on your platform and make a large profit on your cut of the sales. It also works as a directory for users and allows Microsoft to filter out apps that don't meet certain technical requirements. There are some non-technical requirements too but I won't get into that. The point is that the Windows store increases the quality of the platform by forcing developers to modernize their applications (ie. no more Windows Forms) and filters out spam applications for casual users.
 
#18 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by RAND0M1ZER View Post

Microsoft is a business and like most businesses I don't believe they do anything for "egotistical" purposes.

They are clearly trying to mimic the highly successful model that Apple has been using. Create a platform which developers can use to sell software on your platform and make a large profit on your cut of the sales. It also works as a directory for users and allows Microsoft to filter out apps that don't meet certain technical requirements. There are some non-technical requirements too but I won't get into that. The point is that the Windows store increases the quality of the platform by forcing developers to modernize their applications (ie. no more Windows Forms) and filters out spam applications for casual users.
Don't make me laugh. That is boilerplate PR talk.

I don't want a store telling me what I can get for my OS. Look at Apple and the way they handle things. Someone makes an application and Apple has something related coming too, they'll take it down and without explanation. On top of that, things that are perfectly legal but that don't fit with what Apple thinks are not allowed. This isn't the model that I want for Windows.
 
#19 ·
People are ok with everything it seems.

You start a business, want to sell your software and MS tells people your software is unsafe. More and more of the gullible masses start buying from the MS Store, the wall garden keeps tightening the noose on your business. Finally, you break and decide to put your software on the MS store; less profit for you and a cut for Microsoft.

M$ wins.

People please use your brains. "The it's ok because Apple or Android does it?" REALLY, where are we in the twilight zone? Most of us are on a Windows PC because we abhor these ecosystems to begin with that restrict software and hardware freedoms and now you don't mind that M$ is going that way?

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#20 ·
All Microsoft needs is ONE option switch labeled "normies."

When it's on, you get this crap. When it's off you get an OS meant for people with technical know how.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunderman456 View Post

People are ok with everything it seems.

You start a business, want to sell your software and MS tells people your software is unsafe. More and more of the gullible masses start buying from the MS Store, the wall garden keeps tightening the noose on your business. Finally, you break and decide to put your software on the MS store; less profit for you and a cut for Microsoft.

M$ wins.

People please use your brains. "The it's ok because Apple or Android does it?" REALLY, where are we in the twilight zone? Most of us are on a Windows PC because we abhor these ecosystems to begin with that restrict software and hardware freedoms and now you don't mind that M$ is going that way?

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Totally agree. MS saw the resistance to what they're doing and decided to just boil the frog slower.
 
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#22 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunderman456 View Post

People are ok with everything it seems.

You start a business, want to sell your software and MS tells people your software is unsafe. More and more of the gullible masses start buying from the MS Store, the wall garden keeps tightening the noose on your business. Finally, you break and decide to put your software on the MS store; less profit for you and a cut for Microsoft.

M$ wins.

People please use your brains. "The it's ok because Apple or Android does it?" REALLY, where are we in the twilight zone? Most of us are on a Windows PC because we abhor these ecosystems to begin with that restrict software and hardware freedoms and now you don't mind that M$ is going that way?

thumbsdownsmileyanim.gif
:
doh.gif
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Exactly. People can't even help themselves these days apparently. As if people here are using Windows PCs instead of Macs by accident or something.
 
#23 ·
Everyone is on a track being led somewhere and they don't seem to realize that they can get off.
 
#24 ·
I had been thoroughly learning win32 programming until some months ago and was thinking to continue doing so in very near future in an attempt utilize my c/c++ knowledge to create simple GUI instead of learning c#(.net/core).
Now I am scared by this approach of MS. Not that it is not good for Windows security, I agree with MS in here. I support MS, WIn10 is getting better and more responsive than 7/8/8.1 imo. It is so confusing, it would have been much better if MS explicitly announced that win32 is being abandoned since Windows 10 hence go learn .net/winRT instead of win32 so that I and alike learners could directly go .net/UWP without any problem.

or am I being to paranoid ?
headscratch.gif
 
#26 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by sumitlian View Post

I had been thoroughly learning win32 programming until some months ago and was thinking to continue doing so in very near future in an attempt utilize my c/c++ knowledge to create simple GUI instead of learning c#(.net/core).
Now I am scared by this approach of MS. Not that it is not good for Windows security, I agree with MS in here. I support MS, WIn10 is getting better and more responsive than 7/8/8.1 imo. It is so confusing, it would have been much better if MS explicitly announced that win32 is being abandoned since Windows 10 hence go learn .net instead of win32 so that I and alike learners could directly go .net without any problem.

or am I being to paranoid ?
headscratch.gif
Are you being paranoid about the future of win32 or the M$ "security" excuse to shore up the walls around its garden?
 
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