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post #8661 of 16819
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timur Born View Post

@Elmor

1. Why do I (1800X) get a dynamically changing Tctl offset (0/+10/+20 depending on CPU instructions used) instead of a fixed +20 C? Is this something the BIOS messes with even when Sense Skew is disabled?

2. For my 1800X with Sense Skew disabled SIO CPU is a straight Socket + 30 C for Tctl higher than 51 C. Below that it's Tctl + 5 C. This does not seem to be the case for gupsterg's 1700 non X.

1. I don't know and I've never seen this. Disabled means disabled, send an email to AMD smile.gif

2. It doesn't change at a fixed value, it's whichever of the two is lower. I checked the datasheet again and have a small change to add, which is the 30*C offset you see.

Temp A = Tctl + 5
Temp B = CPU Socket + 30

If Temp A > Temp B, use Temp B
If Temp A < Temp B, use Temp A
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johan45 View Post

I found it started to help at higher ram speeds, also new 0082 BIOS is working very well at least for me it is. Pretty sure if I were on air and not the cold loop 3800 would be easily attainable.


Cool, hope your findings can help some others smile.gif
post #8662 of 16819
Quote:
Originally Posted by malitze View Post

Had a strange "bug" now where the CPU temp sensor of the board would somehow get stuck (at 52°C) during testing. The CPU itself went up, the first time I've seen it surpass the board temps (which should not happen I suppose). As a result the fans did not ramp up. After a restart with defaults it's normal again.

I only had this issue on older builds of HWiNFO, are you experiencing it when using HWiNFO and not on latest version?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluej511 View Post

And thats exactly why i listened to Elmor and left mine on auto.

post-flame-small.gif The Stilt post-flame-small.gif posted it 1st and some at the time were like "nahh I'm going with LLC: LVLx". This data from raja@asus has confirmed for non believers what post-flame-small.gif The Stilt post-flame-small.gif stated wink.gif .
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post #8663 of 16819
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timur Born View Post

@MarkPost: You are likely seeing an offset at work. Does it change when you close all background processes (tray icons) and switch to "Power Safer" profile? Do you see temp jumps?

Using idle fans and pump I currently get about 47 C idle, with offset jumps toward 57 C when some background process induces the +10 offset. My mainboard and radiator are about 27 C and CPU Socket temp is about 30 C. This is realistic for a 4.0 Ghz 1800X using a constant 1.35 V with an ambient temperature of about 21.5 C.

yep, I suppose that the 283 value gives me the (in)famous -20º offset for X models. With that, my temps are realistic I think.

Temps doesnt change without those background processes, at least its not noticiable. I use Perfomance mode but customized to downclock CPU when idle

It seems to me, each CPU is a world in its own biggrin.gif
post #8664 of 16819
Quote:
Originally Posted by madweazl View Post

Is there a better way to measure this (compared to SVI2) for those of us at home lacking a scope?

Hello

Not really. These type of measurements require a scope as well as a current probe with a fast slew rate and adequate bandwidth for any type of accuracy.
post #8665 of 16819
Quote:
Originally Posted by elmor View Post

1. I don't know and I've never seen this. Disabled means disabled, send an email to AMD smile.gif
Over at a Gigabyte thread they claim that they get a fixed +20 C offset. This is very obviously not the case on the CH6 where multiple users have reported idle temps in the 10s when Sense Skew is enabled. This can only happen because at full idle the CPU offset turns to +0 (and often jumps to +10 just to gradially decrease again).

I am rather flabbergasted that this is news to you, because people are reporting jumping CPU temps and idle temps below ambient for quite some time already. The jumping temps are mostly +10 offset jumps during normal desktop idle and load, they usually decrease gradually just to jump up again. The below ambient idle temps happens when Sense Skew and +0 offset come together with HWinfo Tdie or the new Ryzen Master putting another -20 C on their readings. (Real Temp - Sense Skew - software skew = -40 C when no offset is active).
Quote:
2. It doesn't change at a fixed value, it's whichever of the two is lower. I checked the datasheet again and have a small change to add, which is the 30*C offset you see.
This makes sense, thanks for the clarification. I guess 22 + 30 = 52 C just was the lowest I could get down to at 21.5 C ambient temps. wink.gif

Gupsterg reports about a different behavior for his 1700. Does this vary by CPU type or did he just not look right? wink.gif Are those datasheets available somewhere?
post #8666 of 16819
Quote:
Originally Posted by gupsterg View Post

I only had this issue on older builds of HWiNFO, are you experiencing it when using HWiNFO and not on latest version?

It accured when I used the latest beta of HWiNFO for the first time, so I thought it was just a change to the readouts. But I'd think those would not affect the fan management. But as said now it works as expected again.
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post #8667 of 16819
Quote:
Originally Posted by gupsterg View Post

I only had this issue on older builds of HWiNFO, are you experiencing it when using HWiNFO and not on latest version?
post-flame-small.gif The Stilt post-flame-small.gif posted it 1st and some at the time were like "nahh I'm going with LLC: LVLx". This data from raja@asus has confirmed for non believers what post-flame-small.gif The Stilt post-flame-small.gif stated wink.gif .

It isn't a matter of non-believers, it is a matter of measured results using the data we've come to believe as accurate (SVI2 in this case). When it comes to somebodies word vice measured results, I'll pick the measured results every time. This isn't to slight anyone; thestilt is a smart cookie and measured a bajillion items in his review which provided a ton of extremely valuable information. With that said, we're kind of back at square one as to which measurements we believe in HWiNFO now (and even the temperature again LOL).
Edited by madweazl - 4/12/17 at 5:49am
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post #8668 of 16819
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raja@ASUS View Post

There's no need to go through all of them. Not from my perspective, anyway.

If you're wondering what happens at level 5, here's a very crude (non-ideal) capture:



With an LLC of 5, if VID is set to 1.40V in UEFI (manual), you'll see load voltages in the ballpark of 1.45V. When releasing the load, the voltage will momentarily peak around 1.47V, before it returns to idle state. The overshoot duration is sub 50uS, but the CPU frequently sees 50~70mv more than what you've set. With "Voffset removed" the VRM has to substantially ramp the voltage when the load hits (will vary somewhat depending upon current), which puts more strain on the FETs. It's just more strenuous on the system to have to ramp voltage by ~50mv while dealing with a transient. How that may impact things down the road is always up in the air. You're playing with percentages/potential for failure, and what that means to you. Whether or not it will happen is difficult to quantify.

If you have sympathy for electronics, you'd likely opt for LLC 1 or 2. At those levels, peak overshoot is constrained 10-20mV over the user-applied VID at durations that likely fall within the tolerance guidelines. Those levels are complimentary to the associated devices. From levels 3 and above, the actual voltage is ramped above the user-defined value, and we start seeing excursions of 30mV+ past the user-set value.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluej511 View Post

And thats exactly why i listened to Elmor and left mine on auto.

I have mine set to -.1000 as an offset, i peak at about 1.250v in that area and under realbench will drop down to 1.197-1.199 but its been fine no crashes no errors. I may try LLC1 and try 39x instead of 38x but its a long shot, it crashed within 1min of realbench at 39x with those voltages.

Gotta be rebellious! but yea this is why I said before i'll stay away from LLC5. Monitoring software cant poll fast enough to see the spikes an oscilloscope can show you, but I guess even LLC3 is in the danger zone a bit as well.

Though, my 4ghz voltage idle maxes as I can see at 1.356v, so will LLC3 spike get to a dangerous level with that?
post #8669 of 16819
Quote:
Originally Posted by gupsterg View Post

post-flame-small.gif The Stilt post-flame-small.gif posted it 1st and some at the time were like "nahh I'm going with LLC: LVLx". This data from raja@asus has confirmed for non believers what post-flame-small.gif The Stilt post-flame-small.gif stated wink.gif .
Well, Raja confirmed that the overshots at LLC1/2 are not very aggressive. I asked the Stilt if 1.35 + LLC2 would over overshoot to more voltage than using 1.375 + LL0. I got no answer, but Raja's post seems to imply that this is not the case. If so then using lower idle voltage + LLC still seems like a valid practice.

What I would like to know is wether the higher LLC would leads to spikes settling slower and thus create additional instabilities compared to lower LLC?! The latter means that not the spike (max) would be the issue, but that the time needed to settle down from the spike to the final voltage would be. Any input on that?

By the way, didn't Elmor suggest LLC1 or LLC2 to be useful instead of Auto? In the end everyone has to measure this on their own. If you can get V1 + LL0 just as stable as V2 + LL2 then I would go by which setting draws less power and use that.
Edited by Timur Born - 4/12/17 at 5:49am
post #8670 of 16819
Shouldn't a fast sampling DMM measuring at the socket also be able to catch these spikes? I'll give it a try with my Fluke 289, have to check its spec for sample rate again.
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