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Logitech introduces G Pro ROMER-G TKL keyboard - Page 8

post #71 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by sberla View Post

I own a G410, my first mechanical keyboard.
Coming from a K120, I loved that keyboard...

Then I came across the MK subreddit and I bought: Varmilo VA87M, Leopold FC750R both with Cherry MX Brown

There is no reason I would ever spend € 154,00 (the price here) on a Logitech Romer-G switch again.

It is not just about the switches, but both the Varmilo and the Leopold are built like tank, feel great, typing and gaming is great (fps player here), for me are better quality products.
I even tried a Magicforce 68 with Gateron brown and felt awesome.

The lighting effect on this new Logitech Pro is stunning you can't deny this, but since I do not care about RGB marketing (I'm ok with just a simple backlight for those dark nights), I do not follow marketing.

Leopolds are one of my favorite keyboard brands. They make amazing quality boards for a really good price. Main reason why over on the MK subreddit you will see most users steer new users away from the main-stream keyboards and recommend brands like Leopold, Varmillo, Filco, Ducky, etc etc. They might not be as flashy, but objectively, they are built much better and you get your money's worth out of them.
post #72 of 103
is that hhkb case actually painted or something? i think it looks awesome
post #73 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucake View Post

is that hhkb case actually painted or something? i think it looks awesome

Currently the base plate is plastidipped gold. I have plans this weekend to metalize it to make it shiny again like I used to have it when I had the vinyl wrap. This will look cleaner and even.
post #74 of 103
Quote:
To improve performance even further, we focused on Keystroke Signal Processing, or KSP. KSP is the sequence of events that translates a switch actuation into a USB signal. To make the Logitech G Pro Gaming Keyboard ultra responsive, we’ve optimized our KSP to be up to 10ms faster response than the competition.

Less 10ms sounds real good for more responsive movements but is it true?
Are ALL other keyboards that much slower or just the one they carefully picked to test against?
Are there any other keyboards in the market that also have low firmware latency?
Is it 10ms faster than the G410?
I kinda wish there was a thread comparing keyboards latency for this.
Like the mouse click latency thread.
post #75 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by RevanCorana View Post

Less 10ms sounds real good for more responsive movements but is it true?
Are ALL other keyboards that much slower or just the one they carefully picked to test against?
Are there any other keyboards in the market that also have low firmware latency?
Is it 10ms faster than the G410?
I kinda wish there was a thread comparing keyboards latency for this.
Like the mouse click latency thread.

Keyboard latency and Mouse latency are applied differently, and mainly why you don't see many Keyboards or Keyboard makers go into details of "how fast they are". There are too many variables in keyboards that can cause latency, lag, chatter, etc etc in a keyboard whereas a mouse has a "real-time" sensor that does the reading. MX Style switches have built-in debounce which is intentional delay so you don't double press or get consistent key chatter.

Different actuation pressure and actuation point can also be a factor, which is something commonly altered within the vast majority of keyboard switches. Another main reason why its better to follow personal preference on how the board feels for you and how it applies to your use. I can use myself for example, I have tried a lot of the MX style switches. I like MX Reds way more than MX Blues, but my typing and speed are by far the worst on Reds than the Blues, but I will never use Blues simply due to the feel and sound of them.

"Low latency" is really a hard thing to actually pinpoint in keyboards because of the lack of research and how reading is done, a lot of the time you aren't getting true readings. Specific applications and even a different computer can cause a certain keyboard to run faster/slower in a certain time, its not a very static value. From what I have seen, even really old keyboards will operate well under 30ms, while most will be ~15ms. Optical or RF switches would objectively be the fastest (currently) because they can dissolve the need for de-bounce simply by design, though you are stuck using a Linear type switch.
Edited by drazah - 4/12/17 at 5:40am
post #76 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterBash View Post

I wish the spacebar would be a bit quieter, as it is a bit louder than the other keys, but compared G410, it is night and day. Much quieter.

The spacebar noise definitely comes from the stabilizers. Good keyboard but I might actually RMA it to get perfect stabilizers for the spacebar.

The rattly spacebar issue with mechanical keyboards with Romer G or Cherry switches is really ridiculous. I have a Blackwidow Chroma v2 now and the spacebar does NOT suffer from this problem. Evidently, Razer engineers found a way to solve this problem while Cherry and Logitech engineers have not?
post #77 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by revoc View Post

The rattly spacebar issue with mechanical keyboards with Romer G or Cherry switches is really ridiculous. I have a Blackwidow Chroma v2 now and the spacebar does NOT suffer from this problem. Evidently, Razer engineers found a way to solve this problem while Cherry and Logitech engineers have not?

Do Razers use proprietary stabilizers? My old blackwidow had costar stabs but havent seen the new boards yet.
post #78 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by drazah View Post

Keyboard latency and Mouse latency are applied differently, and mainly why you don't see many Keyboards or Keyboard makers go into details of "how fast they are". There are too many variables in keyboards that can cause latency, lag, chatter, etc etc in a keyboard whereas a mouse has a "real-time" sensor that does the reading. MX Style switches have built-in debounce which is intentional delay so you don't double press or get consistent key chatter.
Do you know the debounce value of your average Cherry MX? Btw I dont really see a reason why mouse clicks dont have debounce time too tho. Its the same principle of a metal spring contact with a tiny bit of bouncing when it actuate no?
I know capacitive and optical dont have any debounce latency at all since there is no hard contact but Logitech claim to have limited their Romer G debounce to the max so it may be under 1 ms.
Quote:
"Low latency" is really a hard thing to actually pinpoint in keyboards because of the lack of research and how reading is done, a lot of the time you aren't getting true readings.
Quote:
Specific applications and even a different computer can cause a certain keyboard to run faster/slower in a certain time,
But you could get a real life estimate by plugging several keyboards in the same computer and testing with a high speed camera. (no I dont have a high speed camera lol)
Quote:
its not a very static value. From what I have seen, even really old keyboards will operate well under 30ms, while most will be ~15ms.
Interesting so .. the G pro keyboard would be around 4ms delay then? (15 from average -11 claimed by Cpate) quite impressive comparatively although purely speculative.
Quote:
Optical or RF switches would objectively be the fastest (currently) because they can dissolve the need for de-bounce simply by design, though you are stuck using a Linear type switch.
Assuming firmware delay is not higher than the debounce delay then yes
Are you sure that linear MX switch dont have debounce?
post #79 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by RevanCorana View Post

Do you know the debounce value of your average Cherry MX? Btw I dont really see a reason why mouse clicks dont have debounce time too tho. Its the same principle of a metal spring contact with a tiny bit of bouncing when it actuate no?
I know capacitive and optical dont have any debounce latency at all since there is no hard contact but Logitech claim to have limited their Romer G debounce to the max so it may be under 1 ms.

But you could get a real life estimate by plugging several keyboards in the same computer and testing with a high speed camera. (no I dont have a high speed camera lol)
Interesting so .. the G pro keyboard would be around 4ms delay then? (15 from average -11 claimed by Cpate) quite impressive comparatively although purely speculative.
Assuming firmware delay is not higher than the debounce delay then yes
Are you sure that linear MX switch dont have debounce?

Quote:
Do you know the debounce value of your average Cherry MX?

Debounce factors in a lot of other things too that could increase overall input latency, such as Hz rating of the keyboard. A keyboard of 125Hz can have 3 scans @ ~8ms apart for a total of ~16-24ms from starting actuation point and back. A keyboard of 1000Hz (typical in today's standards) is hitting a scan per ~1ms, but depending on the switch it will still have built-in debounce delay, its just that this factor is less of the total value.

Cherry and ALPs switches both claim to have <5ms de-bounce.
Quote:
Btw I dont really see a reason why mouse clicks dont have debounce time too tho. Its the same principle of a metal spring contact with a tiny bit of bouncing when it actuate no?

I was regarding the latency to the mouse sensor specifically and not the switches, my bad. For the mouse switches though, you are correct, it is just a mechanical switch which would also have built in de-bounce. Certain mice will have a click latency of ~1ms while some crappy mice will be ~30ms and also be prone to have double-click issues. I think as far as testing goes, Mice will always have more data. There is a bigger community, and they are heavily nit-picked specifically to be the fastest and best, while keyboards don't get as much "objective" testing and it's far more preferenced based.

Quote:
Assuming firmware delay is not higher than the debounce delay then yes
Are you sure that linear MX switch dont have debounce?

Standard Linear switches have debounce, I mean that RF/Optical/Analog keyboard switches feel like Linear switches without the debounce. From my understanding and from what is available, current RF/Optical/Analog switches in keyboards can only be feasible in a linear manner. I think Flaretech have works for a clicky/tactile Analog switch but not sure what the progression yet is on these. To some, it may be a matter of sacrifice, I personally type and game the worst on Linear switches. So regardless if it was the fastest keyboard ever, if it uses Linear switches then I probably won't be good on it.
post #80 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by drazah View Post

Do Razers use proprietary stabilizers? My old blackwidow had costar stabs but havent seen the new boards yet.

Hmm, I'm not sure. I haven't lifted the keycaps yet and probably won't until it's cleaning time. smile.gif
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