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[Videocardz] AMD Vega with 64 Compute Units spotted - Page 46

post #451 of 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Patekar View Post

Its an elegant post you wrote which, surprisingly agrees with what I've been saying. Why did AMD initially price the 7970 and 7870 so high? For the same reason nVidia is pricing their cards so high today. Lack of competition at the time. AMD was first to market with the fastest flagship and they tried to capitalize on it. nVidia eventually responded with their 680 GTX, which was a mid-sized die like the 7970 and it outperformed the 7970 on launch. They priced it according to the competition and held back their 500+ mm^2 die. Traditionally the mid-sized die would be the xx70 card and the 500+ mm^2 the xx80 card, but things changed that day. AMD could no longer compete.

The issue you're having, and why you think you're disagreeing with me now when you're not, is that I'm not loyal to any one brand. I buy the best bang for the bucks that meets my needs. I skipped the 7970 on launch, it was too pricey. I waited for nVidia to respond and bring some competition. They did, partially. Unfortunately AMD had nothing else than the 7970.. so they overclocked it and re-branded it.. and nvidia withheld their 500+ mm^2 die. I eventually picked up the 7970 when the price came down, and that card held up the test of time quite well. (it outperforms the 680 today).

AMD placed the 7970 at launch on the price point set by nvidia with their GTX580 3GB model, they did not try to capitalize on anything, just followed the market leader. 7970 (not the GHz model, the standard) had matched the 680 by july that year (12.7 drivers) and completely surpassed it for good november that year (12.11).
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post #452 of 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by reqq View Post

Looking at that videocardz benchmark vega kick titan pascal pretty hard in DeepBench benchmark. Possible to guess gaming performance from here, or is totally different workload?
Only by manufacturer, really. You're basically never going to see the Fury X (~MI8) beat the Pascal Titan. The MI25 is about 50% faster than the MI8 in the benchmark, but if I had to guess that basically measures the FP32 throughput of the card, and when properly optimised for GCN has had very little issue in that regard. So that's a 50% clock speed improvement since both have 64 compute units with the same amount of shaders with equal throughput each.

Rasterization along with clocks should be the biggest improvements in Vega compared to Fiji.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post

AMD placed the 7970 at launch on the price point set by nvidia with their GTX580 3GB model, they did not try to capitalize on anything, just followed the market leader. 7970 (not the GHz model, the standard) had matched the 680 by july that year (12.7 drivers) and completely surpassed it for good november that year (12.11).
Which was completely reasonable with the terrible initial yields. They were selling every single card they could make even a bit after Kepler launched. Lowering prices would have been straight out lost profit for them.
post #453 of 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post

AMD placed the 7970 at launch on the price point set by nvidia with their GTX580 3GB model, they did not try to capitalize on anything, just followed the market leader. 7970 (not the GHz model, the standard) had matched the 680 by july that year (12.7 drivers) and completely surpassed it for good november that year (12.11).

There is a deep flaw in this logic and gives even more justification for Nvidia price increase this generation.

It gives room for infinite price increases and never passes the savings of new node onto the consumer.

By your logic the requirement of being more expensive than the next is simply being faster than last gen flagship. By this logic the gtx 1080 performs faster than a gtx 980 ti and fury x and thus should cost more than a the gtx 980 ti and fury x. The gtx 1080 ti performs faster than the gtx 1080 and should be more expensive than it and the gtx 2080 is faster than a gtx 1080 ti and should be more expensive than it. This leads to continuously forever more expensive cards and we need a reset somewhere to get prices back to slow down the rate of price increase.

E.g the gtx 980 being cheaper than the gtx 780 ti.

Combined with the node being particularly this expensive this time around as seen in the earlier charts and the gtx 1080 at 699 is fairly priced. I.E 50 dollars more expensive than gtx 980 ti and fury x like the 7970 being 50 dollars more expensive than the gtx 580.

I believe 599 and 379 would have been fine if this was really the starting price of the gtx 1080 and 1070. Not 699 and 449. FE is the same type of pricing as AMD's initial pricing with the 7970. But atleast in Nvidia case, they knew AMD was not competing for a year so it is more sound from a business perspective.

What still takes the cake is the 7870. $350 dollar for a 211mm2 die on a much cheaper node than finfet. It was these type of prices that turned Nvidia's high pricing look like a bargain when they were first released. Add in AMD was usually the value brand keeping Nvidia's pricing in check and you have the catalyst for the massive increase in GPUs.

The brand with higher market value is always more expensive than the value brand. However what Nvidia did was a hybrid approach, it didn't match AMD prices or price it above even those they had better performance, they undercut AMD and took their marketshare badly.

If AMD didn't price the 7970 so high, there would have been better adoptions for the card and give less opportunity for Nvidia to undercut them.

AMD high pricing was a gamble of short term profit vs loss of goodwill. This bet didn't pay off and AMD lost long term profits and goodwill. Consequently, Nvidia gained higher long term profit and goodwill and it was thanks to AMD poor business execution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tojara View Post

Only by manufacturer, really. You're basically never going to see the Fury X (~MI8) beat the Pascal Titan. The MI25 is about 50% faster than the MI8 in the benchmark, but if I had to guess that basically measures the FP32 throughput of the card, and when properly optimised for GCN has had very little issue in that regard. So that's a 50% clock speed improvement since both have 64 compute units with the same amount of shaders with equal throughput each.

Rasterization along with clocks should be the biggest improvements in Vega compared to Fiji.
Which was completely reasonable with the terrible initial yields. They were selling every single card they could make even a bit after Kepler launched. Lowering prices would have been straight out lost profit for them.

This justifies the increases in pricing this generation as well. Finfet was the first time there was not much saving from going onto a new node. Look at the charts I posted just a tiny bit back. If you thought 28nm was expensive, 14/16nm is crazy expensive which is shown by transistor cost between 28 and 14/16nm being the same. As explained earlier double the transistor density = double the cost.
post #454 of 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post

AMD placed the 7970 at launch on the price point set by nvidia with their GTX580 3GB model, they did not try to capitalize on anything, just followed the market leader. 7970 (not the GHz model, the standard) had matched the 680 by july that year (12.7 drivers) and completely surpassed it for good november that year (12.11).

If AMD didn't do that prices probably wouldn't be where they are today
post #455 of 566
Not really. I bought a 7970 on release, came from 580 1.5GB @ 1GHz. In many games the upgrade felt like a downgrade for the first 3-4 months. It was terrible.
After 3-4 months it got slightly better, but then 680 and 670 hit, and 670 outperformed 7970 in most games.

First with 12.11 (In Late October 2012) the performance was finally good. But 7970 non-GHz still didn't beat 680 in general. 1600p by 1%, which was a very high resolution for these GPU's. CF was broken because of terrible framepacing.)

https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/Catalyst_12.11_Performance/23.html

The 7970 matured very well compared to 670/680, but the first many months were hell.
I felt like a guinea pig. Almost like AMD pushed the cards as fast as possible to get more early sales (priced dropped alot after Kepler launch)..
Edited by Lass3 - 4/18/17 at 5:48am
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post #456 of 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lass3 View Post

The 7970 matured very well compared to 670/680, but the first many months were hell.
I felt like a guinea pig. Almost like AMD pushed the cards as fast as possible to get more early sales (priced dropped alot after Kepler launch)..

You still were delivered a product with the specs you already knew about during launch. Getting more is always great and is historically true with AMD, but expecting more than what you paid for doesn't make much sense.

My 7950 was a non-GHz edition (800/1250) that I bought for close to $300, but clocked as high as 1300/1700 when paired with an EK waterblock. It was pretty impressive for me for 1080p res, but once I moved to 1440p/120Hz, it definitely fell flat on its face.
    
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post #457 of 566
welp that's kinda disappointing, AMD late to the party as usual, and i heard people said Vega was supposed to fight against Volta, mehh guess that's not true.
post #458 of 566
In that case, how are they late to the party? I didn't realise volta had been released.
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post #459 of 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111 View Post

This justifies the increases in pricing this generation as well. Finfet was the first time there was not much saving from going onto a new node. Look at the charts I posted just a tiny bit back. If you thought 28nm was expensive, 14/16nm is crazy expensive which is shown by transistor cost between 28 and 14/16nm being the same. As explained earlier double the transistor density = double the cost.
To an extent, yes. I'm not going to go too heavy on numbers as I don't have data for the newer GPUs, but even on high end cards the GPU itself typically only costs around half, leaning to two thirds of the total board BOM on few cards.

A 1080 (card) should be cheaper to manufacture than a 980 ti in the first place. When they had been making >550mm^2 GPUs on 28nm for over three years there's basically no way the BOM of the 980 ti was anywhere near the 780/ti (and the 780 was $650 with the full 780 ti hitting essentially the same price bracket few months later). With the BOM/MSRP of those in mind, it's quite easy to see that the profit margin has gone quite a bit up even with increasing manufacturing costs, as long as the yields aren't absolutely piss poor and the memory isn't stupendously expensive (as mentioned, I have no figures for GDDR5X, but I can't believe that it costs more than twice than non-X).

I don't even see that as the worst thing for the market as it allows AMD to stay remotely competitive with no effort (like actually four or five years worth of minimal R&D investment in GPUs), but you're not going to get good high-end GPUs for cheap before they get back in the game. Even then, if someone doesn't get multi-dies to work soon the end of silicon scaling will change the market.
post #460 of 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by hteng View Post

welp that's kinda disappointing, AMD late to the party as usual, and i heard people said Vega was supposed to fight against Volta, mehh guess that's not true.

Vega even beats Volta
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