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Ryzen vs Intel (not just gaming) - Page 2

post #11 of 32
You just forgot to consider that Intel LGA1151 is a dead end. Also, you overlooked Intel problems with the AMD, brand new platform, ones. Very commom.

Anyway, grats and enjoy your RIG.

smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildhorse View Post

You have to consider many issues:
  • do you have high/low budget? If your budget is low, you will be probably more than happy to use Ryzen as it will cost less. If you have higher budget, you may be tempted to buy the most expensive Intel motherboard/cpu/ram and end up spending more.
  • do you need 8 cores now or its more a reserve for the future?
  • do you prefer fast 1-4 thread performance or multi thread performance?
  • do you want to use very fast memory (DDR4 3600-4000) or are happy with DDR4 2400-3200 with Ryzen?
  • how much RAM do you need? Ryzen seems to suffer from lower memory performance when all 4 slots are filled. It cannot maintain high frequencies. Very few motherboard + ram combinations seem to be capable of running 4x DDR4 3200. Also happens when double ranked memory is used.
  • do you have time to wait for further Ryzen revisions which will fix discovered issues? (FMA3 bug, possibly faster memory access)

I considered whether to go with Ryzen or Core i7 7700K and decided that for my usage i7 7700K will be more than sufficient even though more expensive. I really wanted to support AMD and buy Ryzen, but I can't wait 3-6 months for things to stabilize.

The problem with Ryzen per CCX cache (8MB for each cluster) and subsequent need to patch Windows scheduler is more serious than people think. In practice threads may get started/stopped. Kernel cannot predict on which CCX thread should be started to use CCX cache efficiently. Or there may be a fixed thread pool and work may be handed over to threads (different kind of work, not dependant on thread id). In this case Kernel also cannot do anything about this and work may end up on wrong CCX. This problem will sadly affect also 4 core Ryzens as they will be 2x2.
post #12 of 32
I'm aware that both Z270 and X99 are dead ends. But Z270 allows you to use superfast memory that AMD probably won't for some time, kaby lake has higher IPC, higher frequency and also OCs better. Ryzen can't take away the fast single/few thread processing away from 7700K now or in the near future.

I haven't made the purchase yet, there is still chance to get even X99. But 6850K can't really beat 1800X in single thread and loses in multi thread performance, being more expensive too. I will have to see some benchmarks whether it could make more sense for the future given that it can support x16/x16 SLI that could be useful in the future or swap in a 6950K or the best Xeon processor that can go in there.

I'm not even considering the new soon to be released Intel X299 since as you pointed out problems with new platform are common and initially board availability is not so good. I also heard that 6 core CPU for X299 will not have 40 PCIE lanes but less (24-28) and instead chipset will have more. But since chipset and CPU will use just DMI 3.0, its better to have PCIE lanes directly on CPU. Intel wants people to pay heavily for 40 lane cpu in the next generation. So actually X99 is not waste of money at all.
Edited by wildhorse - 4/8/17 at 6:22am
post #13 of 32
Thread Starter 
It sounds like one M.2 would be sufficient. If one is 'slower' then I don't see the point of getting a 2nd one unless it was really cheap. I'm concerned about the motherboard choices and I don't see the price advantages - like some who do. At least, in Canada, there are no 'deals.' In Canada, the R7 1700 is over $400 (Cdn)., for e.g. The Ryzen R5 chips might be more cost effective (and 'worth it.'). The main reason I would consider them is the extra cores/threads but I would want to know how much software out there make use of it. I'm not someone who would 'need' the highest frame rates for games as I think even the R5 would provide sufficient game play/performance if not the best. But, I would want to know how efficient are these chips regarding temperature/power consumption when they are at 'load' or doing multiple tasks. Also, I found it peculiar that it has 'inferior' hardware compared to Intel which I mentioned already (Intel LAN seems older on AM4 boards as an e.g.).

The Ryzen chips might be cheaper to comparative Intel processors but only around $50 or so - so for someone who has the $$, I don't see it as a huge difference. For me, yes, but for the average buyer/enthusiast who has the $$ to spend, I don't think so. So, if you are a gamer, I would think the speed of the chip matters more until games are designed to take more advantage of more cores - at lest, that is what I've read so far.

So, I would compare temps/power consumption and efficiency of the chip especially of the more mid-tier chips like the R5 (although the R7 1700 looks like the 'best' buy) and compare it to i5 or i7 (Intel) processors and their temps/power specs (when doing general purpose computing).

What I have read so far, the AMD Ryzen chips are not the best overclockers although the temps seem to be decent (of the few reviews I've come across). So, again, I think the AMD hardware is worth considering but right now, the motherboard choices are few and far between and I believe they don't make sufficient use of faster ram yet. There's a lack of optimization for various software/OS (e.g. Windows 10?) and this might make me wait even if I had the money to splurge now. I can wait although I don't have current hardware that can make use of even the current SATA HDs so I would like to upgrade soon just so I can have a fast hard drive (SSD)!
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post #14 of 32
For me, there's​ only 4 reason not to buy a ryzen cpu.

1. You dont like the motherboards for ryzen
2. Cpu cooler same as #1
3. Intel features even igpu
4. You game at 720p or 1080p and you care so much about fps loss even if your gpu can handle games at those resolution

Other than that ryzen is better than intel.
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post #15 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by momonz View Post

For me, there's​ only 4 reason not to buy a ryzen cpu.

1. You dont like the motherboards for ryzen
2. Cpu cooler same as #1
3. Intel features even igpu
4. You game at 720p or 1080p and you care so much about fps loss even if your gpu can handle games at those resolution

Other than that ryzen is better than intel.

I considered Ryzen 1800X as I will be buying new PC, but rejected it for reasons mentioned in another topic. Mainly having too many problems right now, like ram speed, low practical RAM size (with good speed) of only 16GB, high latency, insufficient M.2 slots, problem with L3 cache speed between CCX. It was a let down for me. Good enough to save AMD from bankrupcy, but not good enough for me to sponsor it.

But for many people 1 M.2 will be enough, a mid cost X370 board + Ryzen 1500X/1600X/1700 and 16GB RAM will serve them well. ASRock X370 Taichi in particular is a good choice for Ryzen board.
Edited by wildhorse - 4/9/17 at 3:08pm
post #16 of 32
Thread Starter 
How are X370 boards 'mid-cost?' They seem really expensive. Maybe not for Americans....but, for Canadians with the horrible currency difference, they are expensive.... processors/boards - for e.g. $80 - $100 more.

Cheapest/decent X370 board is $200 while the really ones start at $300. That's a lot for a mobo, isn't it?

Okay, so now that Ryzen R5 is released, is there any change in opinions? This is the price comparision in Canada:

R5 1400 - $225; R5 1500X - $253 - this is for newegg Canada. Intel i5 processors - i5-7500 - $260

So, comparing these three processors, which would you pick? The tax puts the final price very close to $300 for the last two processors suggested.

I'm not too worried about the RAM issues now. I think those issues will be taken care of. I read a lot of reviewers and the buyer had his RAM at 3200 MHz. That is, at stock speeds...

What concerns me is the high prices of the AMD hardware - I don't see the price being substantially lower than comparative Kaby Lake processors/hardware and this is specially applicable to the motherboards.... the X370 looks like a significant upgrade on the B350 boards. So, is the AMD/AM4/Ryzen a better deal when all is put together and with the better option - upgrade path? Should I save for an X370 board instead of the B350 mobo? It seems you get more features, better LAN hardware, options for wifi etc.

So?
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post #17 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by noobee View Post

How are X370 boards 'mid-cost?' They seem really expensive. Maybe not for Americans....but, for Canadians with the horrible currency difference, they are expensive.... processors/boards - for e.g. $80 - $100 more.

Cheapest/decent X370 board is $200 while the really ones start at $300. That's a lot for a mobo, isn't it?

Okay, so now that Ryzen R5 is released, is there any change in opinions? This is the price comparision in Canada:

R5 1400 - $225; R5 1500X - $253 - this is for newegg Canada. Intel i5 processors - i5-7500 - $260

So, comparing these three processors, which would you pick? The tax puts the final price very close to $300 for the last two processors suggested.

I'm not too worried about the RAM issues now. I think those issues will be taken care of. I read a lot of reviewers and the buyer had his RAM at 3200 MHz. That is, at stock speeds...

What concerns me is the high prices of the AMD hardware - I don't see the price being substantially lower than comparative Kaby Lake processors/hardware and this is specially applicable to the motherboards.... the X370 looks like a significant upgrade on the B350 boards. So, is the AMD/AM4/Ryzen a better deal when all is put together and with the better option - upgrade path? Should I save for an X370 board instead of the B350 mobo? It seems you get more features, better LAN hardware, options for wifi etc.

So?

If you're building now, I would argue for the six-core $295 (Canadian) R5 1600. Don't get an i5 7500 - poor overclocking potential for a highly overclockable microarchitecture. A Kaby Lake chip can and should be run at 4.6GHz +, and the i5 7500 at only 3.8GHz Turbo barely even competes with the R5 1500. The R5 1600, however, is a better buy, even with the B350, than an overclocked 7600K.

Source: I just built my 7600K sig rig and I slightly regret not waiting for the R5 1600.
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post #18 of 32
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by momonz View Post

For me, there's​ only 4 reason not to buy a ryzen cpu.

1. You dont like the motherboards for ryzen
2. Cpu cooler same as #1
3. Intel features even igpu
4. You game at 720p or 1080p and you care so much about fps loss even if your gpu can handle games at those resolution

Other than that ryzen is better than intel.
What about Cannon Lake?

It's still LGA 1151 socket?

I don't know why AMD Ryzen is suddenly recommended. The price reduction is not much. Does it perform much better? I don't put a lot f stock into single thread gaming - and AMD doesn't 'win' those. I like multithread performance of Ryzen but I don't think it blows Intel out of the water either. Will Cannonlake processors fit in current 1151 motherboards? Intel is the only one so far that lets you buy a budget cpu and upgrade later. With Ryzen, you have to buy a $200+ chip (well, in Canada) and it's only a R5 1400. Everything else is well over $200 and you get to $300 because of the tax.

Then you cannot get two M.2 slots and I think that would be more useful - I would like the option of two M.2 slots although maybe 1 is enough.

How is LGA 1151 a dead end if Coffeelake/ Cannonlake iis on the way?
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post #19 of 32
If you have the money and considered Ryzen 1800X then Skylake-X 7820X will be a very good alternative. More RAM, more storage, slightly faster CPU. I expect them to sell very well.
post #20 of 32
The IMC appears to be even stronger on the X299 platform. Capable of 4400 CL19 that the Z270 could only get 4133-4266.
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