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Watercooling Delta > 20C ???

18K views 44 replies 14 participants last post by  Yukss 
#1 ·
I am unsure why my WC setup is incurring such high Delta over ambient on idle and most importantly load.

My system specs are:

Intel Core i7 4790k @4.6GHz @1.264V
Gainward GTX 1080 Pheonix @1.075V @2,101MHz & 5500MHz
MSI Z87 GD-65 Gaming Motherboard
Corsair GS-700 Bronze PSU
G-Skill Ripjaws 1600MHz 16GB Ram
Thermaltake P5 ATX Case

WC setup:

EK Supremacy EVO CPU Waterblock
EK-FC1080 GTX JetStream - Nickel
Alphacool NexXxoS ST30 560 Quad Radiator
EK CoolStream XE 480 Quad Radiator
EK XRES 140 Revo D5
PrimoChill PrimoFlex Advanced LRT Tubing Red 3/8ID 5/8OD
4 x Corsair SP 120 (1550RPM)
2 x Corsair SP 140 (1440RPM)

Loop order:

Res > Pump > GPU > CPU > 560 > 480 > Res

Problem:

GPU under load within 1 minute reaches and stabilizes at 52-55C @100% fans with adequate flow rate from pump. I am seeing other people report max GTX 1080 temps of 38-45C or delta's <10C. If I run my fans at 50% I can expect GPU temps to hit 55-57C. Over the past few months of using the PC, my GPU temps have always seemed to be in the mid 50's range regardless of ambient temps whether we experience 40C hot days or 25-30C days I have never been able to run consistently <50C on GPU.

I have reseated the GPU block at least 4 times and have used MX-4 thermal compound. It appeared to be making good contact with GPU die. I did have to replace the thermal pads of one side of the memory bank as there was a gap and wasn't making contact with the required 0.5mm thermal pad. I installed a 1.0mm pad and this has solved the problem for that. I doubt that has offset the GPU block as my temps before this were still hitting 55C max since I first got the block.

CPU under Aida64 with all CPU parameters ticked hits around 65-70C across all cores under load (dellided)

I do lack measuring and temp sensing equipment and will get a water temp sensor within a week to figure out what is going on.

Any advice in the mean time will be appreciated. But from what I can tell roughly, my ambient is around 25C and is quite humid currently. Before booting my PC I felt the water temp inside the res and it was cold of course. After gaming for a few hours, the water temp seemed almost the same, it was not at all luke warm or hot, but it did feel a few degrees warmer. Fans are running full tilt at 100% 1550rpm for the 120's and 140's at 1440rpm. Pump is a D5, running at about 2400rpm (55%). Air has been bled out from what I can tell almost completely by running pump at 100% for the first few days since I added the 560 rad, and tilting PC case.



Fans @100%


Fans @50%
 
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#3 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by 0451 View Post

Delta T is your water temp delta T, nit your CPU/GPU delta T. Nobody has a CPU/GPU delta T under 20 without extreme cooling.
Well I'm pretty sure many people who have reported to me, are saying that my temps are very high considering rad space. People with 25C ambients can achieve GPU temps of <40C, whereas my temps at roughly 25C at actual acceptable fan speeds are hitting 57C.

57-25 = 32C Delta... This is terrible from what I have heard.
 
#4 ·
Your fine you will go crazy worrying about what every other person says. You have a lot of rad space, do your temps even change when you lower fan speed? Just thinking your not even coming close to heat soaking those rads to need to turn your fans up.
 
#5 ·
I have uploaded above photos at 100% fan speed and 50%. @50% fan speed temps creep up to 56/57C for GPU load temps... And yes this is driving me insane. I also notice that my GPU block is one of few from EK that actually cools the chokes. On the MSI sea hawk only GPU/memory itself is cooled but not the chokes.. I have no idea if this is what is causing high temps on my block only ?
 
#6 ·
A Delta T is just the difference between any two temperatures and more than one kind is used in water cooling, so its possible to confuse one delta with another.

The most common one people talk about with water cooled systems is the ambient air temp - coolant temp delta. That tells us how well the radiators and so on are cooling the coolant. A commonly talked about figure is around 10C but less and more is of course normal.

The Core temp - coolant temp delta is a measure of how well the block performs. You will see this one used in block reviews. By comparing to coolant temp we remove the variation in ambient air temp from any comparison. For example if your friend is getting 30C GPU temps and you can't do better than 50C it doesn't automatically mean your system is worse, just that your mate is in a 15C ambient and yours is 35C.

For GPU's a common core - coolant delta figure is 10C on Nvidea GPUs running hard, all the way up to 20C for some AMD GPUs (though this may have just been a part of the 290X's insane power usage.
For CPU's it is normal for it to be much higher than the GPU. Figures up to 30 and 40C are normal when overclocking, this figure will vary with chip type and block.

So, wirth your system you should be easily seeing an ambient - coolant delta of 5C or less. The GPU block hasn't been tested properly but it should fit into the common 10C or less core - coolant delta.
In 25C ambient I would expect a 40C GPU temp at most, and/or lower than that once the system is running as it should.

So, a GPU temp that instantly spikes up to 55C, as oposed to slowly climbing from a lower temp, is indicative of a bad mount or similar problem with the block rather than with the cooling system as a whole.

A good set of pics for the whole system can make diagnosis much easier.
Is the mount good?
Is the block connected to the loop correctly?
These are the most common block related problems.
 
#7 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashcroft View Post

A Delta T is just the difference between any two temperatures and more than one kind is used in water cooling, so its possible to confuse one delta with another.

The most common one people talk about with water cooled systems is the ambient air temp - coolant temp delta. That tells us how well the radiators and so on are cooling the coolant. A commonly talked about figure is around 10C but less and more is of course normal.

The Core temp - coolant temp delta is a measure of how well the block performs. You will see this one used in block reviews. By comparing to coolant temp we remove the variation in ambient air temp from any comparison. For example if your friend is getting 30C GPU temps and you can't do better than 50C it doesn't automatically mean your system is worse, just that your mate is in a 15C ambient and yours is 35C.

For GPU's a common core - coolant delta figure is 10C on Nvidea GPUs running hard, all the way up to 20C for some AMD GPUs (though this may have just been a part of the 290X's insane power usage.
For CPU's it is normal for it to be much higher than the GPU. Figures up to 30 and 40C are normal when overclocking, this figure will vary with chip type and block.

So, wirth your system you should be easily seeing an ambient - coolant delta of 5C or less. The GPU block hasn't been tested properly but it should fit into the common 10C or less core - coolant delta.
In 25C ambient I would expect a 40C GPU temp at most, and/or lower than that once the system is running as it should.

So, a GPU temp that instantly spikes up to 55C, as oposed to slowly climbing from a lower temp, is indicative of a bad mount or similar problem with the block rather than with the cooling system as a whole.

A good set of pics for the whole system can make diagnosis much easier.
Is the mount good?
Is the block connected to the loop correctly?
These are the most common block related problems.
I wouldn't say it instantly spikes up to 55C. But it would do so in about 1 minute. It would go from say 32C to 44C, then within 30 seconds it would hit 48C, then another 30 seconds it would be in the 50's and finally it would settle anywhere between 50-55C depending on game.

You can tell very easily based on high quickly the temps climb that keep the GPU in the 40's is out of the question...

Here are some photos of my loop.



 
#8 ·
I think it is somewhat bad gpu block (the first thought - is it flat or convex? Did thermal paste cover all of die when you removed gpu block? And for that matter did you spread thermal paste or did you just put a single dot in the middle of the gpu die?). There is no way for water to heat so quickly (it has huge thermal capacity) - I have thermal sensor in my water loop which is somewhat comparable to yours (D5 at position 2.5, something around 2.5k RPM, 3x360mm rads, 3770k @4.6 and 980 Ti) and when playing Far Cry primal (GPU at 99% all the time, considerable load on all cores) at ~24 C ambient water starts starts ~26 degrees and gradually, after a few minutes rises to around 30, and again, a few minutes later to stabilizes 33 degrees max and that is at around 900 RPM (that is push only inside a case with mix of SP120 and EK vardar fans). If I set my fans to 1500 RPM no way water would be hotter than 30 degrees. Now the block I have is "abysmal" koolance GPU-220 which, by all accounts, is super mega awesomely bad (it does not even have fins) but even it gives Delta T of gpu temp (38 C) - water temp (33 C) = 5 degrees. For that matter with aida64 CPU stress test my 3770k cores max out at around ~77 degrees @4.6 @1.3V but I did not delid it (EK supremacy MX, noctua D15 actually gave me pretty much the same temperature, I hate intel for using paste on its mainstream CPU's) and water stays at cosy ~27-28 degrees.

By the way if you do not have infrared gun - get it, it generally good to have around the house and it will give you water temperature if you point it at your hoses
thumb.gif
 
#9 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by dejau View Post

I think it is somewhat bad gpu block (the first thought - is it flat or convex? Did thermal paste cover all of die when you removed gpu block? And for that matter did you spread thermal paste or did you just put a single dot in the middle of the gpu die?). There is no way for water to heat so quickly (it has huge thermal capacity) - I have thermal sensor in my water loop which is somewhat comparable to yours (D5 at position 2.5, something around 2.5k RPM, 3x360mm rads, 3770k @4.6 and 980 Ti) and when playing Far Cry primal (GPU at 99% all the time, considerable load on all cores) at ~24 C ambient water starts starts ~26 degrees and gradually, after a few minutes rises to around 30, and again, a few minutes later to stabilizes 33 degrees max and that is at around 900 RPM (that is push only inside a case with mix of SP120 and EK vardar fans). If I set my fans to 1500 RPM no way water would be hotter than 30 degrees. Now the block I have is "abysmal" koolance GPU-220 which, by all accounts, is super mega awesomely bad (it does not even have fins) but even it gives Delta T of gpu temp (38 C) - water temp (33 C) = 5 degrees. For that matter with aida64 CPU stress test my 3770k cores max out at around ~77 degrees @4.6 @1.3V but I did not delid it (EK supremacy MX, noctua D15 actually gave me pretty much the same temperature, I hate intel for using paste on its mainstream CPU's) and water stays at cosy ~27-28 degrees.

By the way if you do not have infrared gun - get it, it generally good to have around the house and it will give you water temperature if you point it at your hoses
thumb.gif
I decided to empty my loop and have another look. Its all the same as it was before. I re-applied some Thermal Grizzly and have seen 2-3C drop from my max 54/55C to a max of 51/52C but that's about it. The right side memory bank is using 1mm thermal pads while the other 2 banks are using 0.5mm. Reason being the right side banks were not making any contact whatsoever. But my temps before this fix were still in the mid 50's.



 
#10 ·
I think the block is the main culprint (see circled parts, I think block is not making full contact with GPU die, had this happen with air cooler when little part of gpu die did not have thermal paste and gpu temperature was way higher than expected, in your case (please correct if somebody knows better) block is not flat enough to make contact with full gpu die). No way in hell you should be getting worse temperature than what I had with 120mm antec 920 AIO (~48 @1000 RPM @25 ambient).


 
#11 ·
Hi there

Have look here are my temps when I render and my water delta is around 4.3C with all 3 GPU are used in rendering and ambient is 22.6(23C)





You shouldn't have 20C water delta at all with yours setup,you should monitor yours ambient and water temperature and subtract from this yours water delta like in my case 22.6C ambient temperature/26.9C water temps and water delta is 4.3C

These yours temps doesn't make any sense to me,I would suspect block and how fast are you running yours fans there ?

Hope this helps

Thanks,Jura
 
#12 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by jura11 View Post

Hi there

Have look here are my temps when I render and my water delta is around 4.3C with all 3 GPU are used in rendering and ambient is 22.6(23C)





You shouldn't have 20C water delta at all with yours setup,you should monitor yours ambient and water temperature and subtract from this yours water delta like in my case 22.6C ambient temperature/26.9C water temps and water delta is 4.3C

These yours temps doesn't make any sense to me,I would suspect block and how fast are you running yours fans there ?

Hope this helps

Thanks,Jura
I am running my fans at 100%. 1550rpm for 4 x 120's, and 1440rpm for my 2 x 140's, yet to get another 2 fans to fill up remaining slots on radiator.

I took apart my block yesterday and this is what it looked like below.



 
#13 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeLeX63 View Post

I am running my fans at 100%. 1550rpm for 4 x 120's, and 1440rpm for my 2 x 140's, yet to get another 2 fans to fill up remaining slots on radiator.

I took apart my block yesterday and this is what it looked like below.



Hi there

What I'm looking at block looks good for me there,I always using X pattern for GPU which has worked for me there,but yours temps are high for my liking there,if you are running fans at 100% and still yours temps are high then you are really need get water temperature sensor and test what temperature you will hit or get under gaming and normal idle

Hope this helps

Thanks,Jura
 
#14 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by jura11 View Post

Hi there

Have look here are my temps when I render and my water delta is around 4.3C with all 3 GPU are used in rendering and ambient is 22.6(23C)





You shouldn't have 20C water delta at all with yours setup,you should monitor yours ambient and water temperature and subtract from this yours water delta like in my case 22.6C ambient temperature/26.9C water temps and water delta is 4.3C

These yours temps doesn't make any sense to me,I would suspect block and how fast are you running yours fans there ?

Hope this helps

Thanks,Jura
That's pretty legit. What's your wc setup?
 
#15 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by 0451 View Post

That's pretty legit. What's your wc setup?
Hi there

I'm using as base EK X360 kit,fans I've replaced for Noiseblocker BlackSilent Fan XLP 1000-2000RPM and Mayhem Havoc 240mm 60mm thick radiator with Phanteks PH-F120SP fans, case is Phanteks Enthoo Primo and that's it, fans are controlled through the Aquaero 6XT and I'm using on all GPU's(2xGTX1080 FE and Titan X SC)EK waterblocks only

Hope this helps

Thanks, Jura
 
#16 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by jura11 View Post

Hi there

What I'm looking at block looks good for me there,I always using X pattern for GPU which has worked for me there,but yours temps are high for my liking there,if you are running fans at 100% and still yours temps are high then you are really need get water temperature sensor and test what temperature you will hit or get under gaming and normal idle

Hope this helps

Thanks,Jura
At the bottom right of the GPU die, someone from another thread mentioned the thermal paste was not being squished, and there is a layer untouched, therefore not making contact in that lower portion there... When I got my GPU block, the right side memory bank was not even making contact whatsoever following EK's 0.5mm pad instructions to install...
 
#17 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by jura11 View Post

Hi there

I'm using as base EK X360 kit,fans I've replaced for Noiseblocker BlackSilent Fan XLP 1000-2000RPM and Mayhem Havoc 240mm 60mm thick radiator with Phanteks PH-F120SP fans, case is Phanteks Enthoo Primo and that's it, fans are controlled through the Aquaero 6XT and I'm using on all GPU's(2xGTX1080 FE and Titan X SC)EK waterblocks only

Hope this helps

Thanks, Jura
What speed were your fans running?
 
#18 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeLeX63 View Post

At the bottom right of the GPU die, someone from another thread mentioned the thermal paste was not being squished, and there is a layer untouched, therefore not making contact in that lower portion there... When I got my GPU block, the right side memory bank was not even making contact whatsoever following EK's 0.5mm pad instructions to install...
Hi there

I have test tried my EK waterblock and checked TIM how is spread, tried like EK supplied TIM and Noctua NT-H1 and with both I've very similar spread like you have there, wish I took pictures of the TIM spread

Not sure if thermal pads would make such high difference I would say yes can there, but 10°C hard to say

Can you try contacting EK what they think of this?

Hope this helps

Thanks, Jura
 
#19 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by 0451 View Post

What speed were your fans running?
Hi there

Top Noiseblocker BlackSilent Fan XLP in push pull configuration running at 1400-1450RPM as max,only few times I've run fans higher than that, usually at low water delta fans are running at 1000-1200RPM

Bottom rad fans Phanteks PH-F120SP which I'm running mostly at 1000-1200RPM as max but they sits at 900-1100RPM mist of the time

Case fans usually I'm running at 900-1000RPM

Hope this helps

Thanks, Jura
 
#21 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiTownButcher View Post

You only have 2 fans on you 560 rad. Add 2 more fans for starters. Should help just with that
Yes true, but even a 480 alone is enough for CPU and GPU with 40C temps, You could say currently I have a 480 and a 280 which is ridiculously overkill. Even at 100% my GPU temps hit 51/52C...
 
#22 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeLeX63 View Post

I wouldn't say it instantly spikes up to 55C. But it would do so in about 1 minute. It would go from say 32C to 44C, then within 30 seconds it would hit 48C, then another 30 seconds it would be in the 50's and finally it would settle anywhere between 50-55C depending on game.

You can tell very easily based on high quickly the temps climb that keep the GPU in the 40's is out of the question...

Here are some photos of my loop.


Thats a little odd and maybe another indication that you have a block/contact problem.



This is a really simple log chart of a GPU's temp and a coolant temp sensor.

You can see the GPU temp in blue and coolant temp is green. The GPU temp only reports in whole degrees and gives that stepped look to the chart.

at the beginning of the chart the system is idle and GPU temp is within 0.8C of coolant temp on that particular sensor, others are closer. As a load is applied the GPU temp immediately jumps from 30C to 37C and then continues to climb slowly as the coolant warms over the next 5 mins, while keeping the same 7C gap. When the load is turned off the GPU temp instantly falls again and very quickly is back to coolant temp. It then follows the coolant temp down back to idle coolant temps.

The way your GPU temp climbs over a minute would seem to indicate that something is being heated by the GPU but coolant would take longer than that.

Is it possible that your GPU is a revised PCB that now clashes with the GPU block? Having memory that won't contact the block is not normal.
 
#23 ·
Poor block-GPU contact gets my vote.

On the photo I included, were (X), (Y) and (Z) the memory ICs that weren't touching the block - the ones on which you replaced the 0.5mm pads with 1.0mm pads? If so, I'd get a straight edge and check if anything inside the orange block is sitting too high off the PCB. I'm thinking the circular impression on the block that corresponds to the area inside the orange box is either not deep enough or not large enough in diameter, causing the block to make improper contact there. That is a depression there, right? Hard to see in the photo.

Not the problem? Then one of the posts on the block that attach inside the orange box may be too tall. Perhaps thinner pads on the VRM bank (A) would work better than adding those thicker pads on the mem ICs (X), (Y) and (Z)? If (X), (Y) and (Z) weren't the ones with the thicker pads, your GPU may not be level on the PCB. That would mean one high corner (opposite the orange box) could be raising the entire block, or one corner (closest to orange box) is too low to ever meet the block well enough to achieve proper GPU contact.

Have you tried just the GPU fit with all pads removed? You need to know if you can get that one floating block corner tightened down to the GPU.

When next you attach the block, try making sure on the last turns that the screws surrounding the GPU are tightened before the rest of the card and the ones inside the orange box are tight before the other 3.



That's all I got...
 
#24 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by jura11 View Post

Hi there

Have look here are my temps when I render and my water delta is around 4.3C with all 3 GPU are used in rendering and ambient is 22.6(23C)





You shouldn't have 20C water delta at all with yours setup,you should monitor yours ambient and water temperature and subtract from this yours water delta like in my case 22.6C ambient temperature/26.9C water temps and water delta is 4.3C

These yours temps doesn't make any sense to me,I would suspect block and how fast are you running yours fans there

Hope this helps

Thanks,Jura
Worst "look at my graph gradients in aquasuite" post ever
tongue.gif
.

OP needs an inline sensor.
 
#25 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Scone View Post

Worst "look at my graph gradients in aquasuite" post ever
tongue.gif
.

OP needs an inline sensor.
If you have better picture to show, then please show up there

He don't need inline sensor, he needs any temp sensor, he can use Phobya temp sensor or Barrow or Bitspower temp sensor should work or even XSPC will work OK

All depends on budget and how he wants to be showed, he can use simple thermometer for cooking which should work as well

Hope this helps

Thanks, Jura
 
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