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7700K & Fractal Design Define C cooler suggestions (170 mm) - Page 2

post #11 of 25
Scythe Ninja and Mugen are great coolers.

While I like Cooling Technique for fan testing, I have ot wonder about their cooler testing. My testing (and many others I trust) show NH-D14, NH-D15, PH-TC14PE, K2, IFX-14 (so old many do not know what it is .. it was predecessor to Silver Arrow) to all be about the same temp .. CoolingTecchnique has them about 10c different.

This is an edited chart from TheLab.gr For almost all of use overclocking 174.4 - 232.1 wattsis the maximum heat range we will push our CPUs to.




Here are test results for Mugen and Ninja
http://www.modders-inc.com/scythe-mugen-5-cpu-cooler-review/4/

And another site I tthink do good cooler testing.
https://uk.hardware.info/reviews/6415/5/scythe-fuma--grand-kama-cross-3-review-new-scythe-cpu-coolers-test-results-maximumncooling
Edited by doyll - 4/6/17 at 3:50am
post #12 of 25
Thread Starter 
@doyll According to this review on theLAB.gr shouldn't my Arctic Freezer i32 handle roughly 240 W with ease? I mean yes my case has front dust filters but with 2 Fractal Design Dynamic X2 GP-12 fans behind it and I've put a second Arctic F12 fan on my cooler for push-pull. Or my i7 7700K is either producing more heat than 240 W or I have really bad airflow, which I doubt (maybe average at worst).

Btw I was browsing Amazon.de and seems like the ARCTIC Liquid Freezer 240 and the Phanteks TC14PE are on the same price. The AIO would give me much better clearance so I wouldn't have to play around with the Phanteks's fans (putting the front one in the back or using a 120 mm) and hope that somehow I manage to put my side panel back on. On the other side I don't know how much would the AIO last.

I managed to cross reference 2 reviews:

Arctic Liquid Freezer 240 is 47 dB(A) measured at 10 cm which translates to 33 dB(A) at 1 meter by the Inverse Square Law:
https://uk.hardware.info/reviews/6976/10/20-water-coolers-review-for-better-cooling-maximum-cooling-performance

Phanteks TC14PE is at 38 dB(A) 1 meter away:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/9415/top-tier-cpu-air-coolers-9way-roundup-review/12

But what's shocking is how the all AIO's performs seemingly poorly (35 degrees delta at best) at 160 W and 12 V fans while on AnandTech the air coolers had only 14-15 degrees delta:
https://uk.hardware.info/reviews/6976/10/20-water-coolers-review-for-better-cooling-maximum-cooling-performance

Could this be the case? If so why are many overclockers using AIO's and custom loops? Am I missing something?
    
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post #13 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtyred View Post

@doyll According to this review on theLAB.gr shouldn't my Arctic Freezer i32 handle roughly 240 W with ease? I mean yes my case has front dust filters but with 2 Fractal Design Dynamic X2 GP-12 fans behind it and I've put a second Arctic F12 fan on my cooler for push-pull. Or my i7 7700K is either producing more heat than 240 W or I have really bad airflow, which I doubt (maybe average at worst).

Btw I was browsing Amazon.de and seems like the ARCTIC Liquid Freezer 240 and the Phanteks TC14PE are on the same price. The AIO would give me much better clearance so I wouldn't have to play around with the Phanteks's fans (putting the front one in the back or using a 120 mm) and hope that somehow I manage to put my side panel back on. On the other side I don't know how much would the AIO last.

I managed to cross reference 2 reviews:

Arctic Liquid Freezer 240 is 47 dB(A) measured at 10 cm which translates to 33 dB(A) at 1 meter by the Inverse Square Law:
https://uk.hardware.info/reviews/6976/10/20-water-coolers-review-for-better-cooling-maximum-cooling-performance

Phanteks TC14PE is at 38 dB(A) 1 meter away:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/9415/top-tier-cpu-air-coolers-9way-roundup-review/12

But what's shocking is how the all AIO's performs seemingly poorly (35 degrees delta at best) at 160 W and 12 V fans while on AnandTech the air coolers had only 14-15 degrees delta:
https://uk.hardware.info/reviews/6976/10/20-water-coolers-review-for-better-cooling-maximum-cooling-performance

Could this be the case? If so why are many overclockers using AIO's and custom loops? Am I missing something?
The Arctic I-32 is a low end cooler. Have you monitored the air temp going into cooler as explained in post #5 of "Ways to Better Cooling" link in my sig)? That is the critical air temperature when using air cooler.

The Arctic Liquid Freezer 240 AIO is really a CLC. It is not as good a cooler as the PH-TC14PE

We cannot compare temps for different review sites .. even though both Anandtech and UK.Hardware do open bench testing.

Many users of AIOs that are CLCs are sheep following the other sheep. They read reviews of coolers tested in cases and see better temps with CLCs than air coolers based on room temp. That and they read posts by someone who had very poor case airflow who changed to a CLC and got 32c lower temps and rave on and on about how great the CLCs .. but what really happened is the CLC is mounted as an intake so it is using room temp air instead of the 32-38c hotter air their old air oooler was trying to cool with. Plus like I've said before, most tests/reviews are not comparing cooler against cooler performance but who they system performs with different coolers. Even with your limited knowledge you could do more accurate cooler testing and reviews.

If you want to get an AIO the best is Swiftech H series, 2nd best are Eisbaer, Kelvin and Silent Loop. They all have copper radiators, fittings for the hoses, fin port, etc. They can be fixed, maintained and are quiet.

Here is Anandtech top air versus top CLC with only true AIO being the Eisbaer 240. Keep in mind the radiator surface areais 288cq cm in a 240 CLC iand 392sq cm in a 280 CLC .. 36% more. I used different shades of blue and green to show cooler temp versus noise level.

Edited by doyll - 4/9/17 at 3:13am
post #14 of 25
Thread Starter 
I haven't monitored the air going in the cooler as I have no thermometer but I'm planning to get one. I suspect the air could be a couple degrees hotter then ambient as I said in my previous post I have 2 Fractal Design Dynamic X2 GP-12 fans as intake in the front in my Define C case. I have no exhaust fan and the case's air holes might cause enough turbulence to screw up air circulation. On the other hand the 2 front intake fans should provide enough pressure to not let that happen. The air might be recirculating back in the CPU cooler with the side panel closed and I have no way to check that visually as I don't have a side window. The only way would be indeed with a thermometer.

doyll I can't thank you enough for the time and effort you put into just to help me and can't imagine how much more you do to help the entire community!

So long story short there is no water cooler at this price point (up to Noctua NH-D15, preferably less) which performs as well (temperature and noise) as the best air coolers? I'd really prefer to stay below 35-38 dBA but I don't know if that's a reasonable goal as my GPU sounds like a fighter jet under heavy load and probably is more noisy then even the mediocre AIO's. I can still hear it from 5 meters so my guess would be that it's running around 45-50 dBA at 75-80% RPM.

I couldn't find any review that I could trust about the Arctic Liquid Freezer 240 but some review say that it performs on the level of Corsairs. Soundwise it seems that it performs alright according to CoolingTechnique.

This is the only detailed review that I could find that tests the fans and pump at different voltages: https://www.computerbase.de/2016-05/all-in-one-aio-wasserkuehlung-test/7/#abschnitt_messungen_mit_serienlueftern. According to them the Arctic temperature-wise is on Noctua levels but the pump is not the most silent one. They also don't test it on a testbench and sadly no sound samples to justify their measurements.

Sadly I can't really afford more then 80 EUR (68 GBP / 85 USD) as I'm renovating my house and every little counts. Maybe I could stretch my budget and get the Fractal Design Kelvin S24 if I can find some reputable and detailed reviews. So far it seems that cooling performance is the same as the NH-D15 but noisier by 6-7 dBA (38 vs 44). Also according to this. Neither did testbench measurements...

So now we're back to square one and it seems my best choise would still be air.
Edited by dirtyred - 4/9/17 at 5:15am
    
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post #15 of 25
Dynamic X2 GP-12 only have 0.88mm H2O pressure rating .. I prefer case fans with about 1.50mm H2O or more. Reason is .88mm at 1200rpm is about .44mm at 700rpm .. about the same as filter and grill resistance .. meaning little to no airflow if not running full speed. A fan that has a 1.5 - 2.0mm H2O rating at 1300rpm will be about .80 at 700rpm. wink.gif

The faster air moves the easier it is for something in that airflow causing turbulence. to limit overall flow.

Low cost indoor / outdoor digital with wired sensor is what I use (post #5 Ways to Better Cooling). Might find one in auto parts store if not they are on ebay. Once we know what the air temp into cooler is we can determine case fan speeds or replacements if needed.

No thanks needed. Just 'pay it forward' by helping some else who is in need, be it about airflow / cooler or maybe car broke down on the road. I help you, you help someone, they help someone else.

Sounds like an aquarium pump.

Is CoolingTechnique video is only fans on radiator? I can't tell if the pump is running .. and every CLC I've tested I could hear the pump.

If you want dependability, especially long term, don't get a CLC. Some last 4-5 years, some last a few months .. and 99.9% of the time it's pumps that fail .. system does not work and expensive fix. With an air cooler the only thing that can go bad is the fan/s .. they are low cost fix and any fan will do until new ones arrive.

I have had good luck on GPUs by removing the stock shroud and fans. then replacing them with 90mm or 120mm 25mm thick fans. More airflow and lower noise. Just need an extra empty PCIe for added fan thickness. Here is my current GPU setup.


Others I've done I just used zip-ties and Arctic F9 TC or F12 TC fans .. they have thermal speed control remote sensor to control fan speed. I slip the sensor between fins and GPU PCB and maybe move them around to find the temp source that gives me the fan rpm curve I want. The idle until 32c then ramp up as temp rises to full speed at 38c air temp.
post #16 of 25
Thread Starter 
Forgot to link the Arctic Liquid Freezer Pump noise video CoolingTechnique made. It sounds pretty much dead silent until 8-10 V. At 11 V is pretty loud but gets better on 12 V full speed. Others complained about the pump rattling noise but I can't hear it in this one. Maybe it's luck if it's a good or bad pump.

I'm pretty satisfied with Arctic F12 fans. They are dead silent below 750 RPM, silent below 900 RPM and audible above 900 RPM but still pleasant at 1300 RPM. My case probably helps with that alot.

I'm a bit worried about pump failure but if it would function for 4-5 years then I guess it's good. Might have to change an air cooler as well after 4-5 years if new sockets won't be supported (Phanteks PH-TC14PE is around 4-5 years old already).

I was thinking about putting better fans on my GPU. Not sure if removing the stock fans would void the warranty (wouldn't want that to happen) because I could just screw them back. I don't even need thermometer for my GPU as it has a sensor built in already. Usually I set the fan curves to be as silent as possible and only ramp up in the last 5-7 degrees of threshold. The jump at 79 degrees is to eliminate the loud annoying resonance caused by the fans between 68-82%. 83 degrees is the throttle treshold at which the fans would spin 100% but never reached above 79 not even with FurMark.

    
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post #17 of 25
Air coolers do not wear out except for fans. They are vacuum sealed copper pipes, copper or aluminum base and aluminum fins. The just don't go bad .. ever. I have some of the very first heatpipe coolers made and they are still going strong. Only thing to go bad is fans and fans last a long long time too. Almost every fan I've changes has been because I wanted a different color to match new build, not because they were going bad .. not all, but most.

Key word about CLC pump is 'if' .. or maybe when. Also keep in mind that pump to gradually wear out, and the more they wear to less water they flow .. and CLC pump just move enough water for a hard working CPU when brand new. wink.gif

Your GPU has an airflow temp sensor ?? are you sure it's not the processor chip temp it is monitoring? The graph you posted is GPU chip temp. wink.gif What is your GPU idle temp?
post #18 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

Others I've done I just used zip-ties and Arctic F9 TC or F12 TC fans .. they have thermal speed control remote sensor to control fan speed. I slip the sensor between fins and GPU PCB and maybe move them around to find the temp source that gives me the fan rpm curve I want. The idle until 32c then ramp up as temp rises to full speed at 38c air temp.

I misunderstood you. I thought you ment you slip a thermal sensor between fins and PCB because your GPU doesn't have thermal sensor for some reason. My GPU idles at 34 °C and dual fans spinning at 550 RPM minimum starting speed. With fans at 0 RPM (until 60 °C when they ramp up from 18% until 68% at 79 °C) the GPU idles at 38 °C.

So I'll guess I'll (try to) settle with Phanteks. The only issue I can't get over is that I have to move the front fan on the back of the towers. Too bad my rams are 41 mm height and in my case only 171 mm towers fit leaving room only for 120 mm fans in the front of the towers. Maybe I'll put one of the Arctic F12 fans on the front tower and the other F12 fan as an exhaust for my case.
    
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post #19 of 25
I prob will choose b81 from prolimatech
post #20 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtyred View Post

I misunderstood you. I thought you ment you slip a thermal sensor between fins and PCB because your GPU doesn't have thermal sensor for some reason. My GPU idles at 34 °C and dual fans spinning at 550 RPM minimum starting speed. With fans at 0 RPM (until 60 °C when they ramp up from 18% until 68% at 79 °C) the GPU idles at 38 °C.

So I'll guess I'll (try to) settle with Phanteks. The only issue I can't get over is that I have to move the front fan on the back of the towers. Too bad my rams are 41 mm height and in my case only 171 mm towers fit leaving room only for 120 mm fans in the front of the towers. Maybe I'll put one of the Arctic F12 fans on the front tower and the other F12 fan as an exhaust for my case.
The fans have sensors for their own speed control. wink.gif
34c is about right for idle.

What issue is there with fans in pull/pull instead of push/push? It really doesn't matter if fans push air into cooler or pull air out of cooler. Performance is near identical. Using F12 will low cooler performance .. F12 is 53cfm; 1300rpm compared to Ph-F140HP_II is 68.1cfm; 1.62mm; H2O 1600rpm. You would be better off using only 1 PH-F140HP_II fan.
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