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[EuroGamer] Inside the next Xbox: Project Scorpio tech revealed - Page 28

post #271 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

None of these superseded high-end PCs at the time of their launch, though a few were close.
No it wasn't. I had an N64 shortly after release, and while some titles were impressive, it was never really a graphical rival to the best available PC hardware.

When N64 launched I had been playing Quake and Mechwarrior II at 1024*768 for for a year (I had a Pentium 75 @ 100MHz and a decent Tseng Labs graphics accelerator in 1995). Nintendo 64 was never able to come close to that and the only games that rivaled the IQ of the more impressive pre-3D acceleration 3D DOS titles had to be run at 320*240 on N64.
Most Athlon 64 X2s or dual-core Opterons (easily competitive with the higher clocked triple-core Xenon, which was narrow and in-order) and the 7800 GTX and 7800 GTX 512.
Of course, which is why I don't fuss over console hardware when making purchase decisions.

Do keep in mind that you can double those frame rates at similar IQ with a handful of easy tweaks. The Crysis default presets were wasteful in the extreme, and DX10 was a token check box that didn't look different enough to ever really justify the performance hit.

I spent a lot of time tweaking Crysis configs to get MWLL running at a decent pace and I can get the game running pretty well on late 2005 PC hardware at this point.

I'm pretty sure consoles could have handled it, with the appropriate tuning.
Both CPU and GPU accesses go over the same bus to the same memory. The CPU probably won't be utilizing much of that, but it will cause contention that will harm GPU access latency and bandwidth.
Sure you can, it's just that raw shader performance is a single, highly academic, metric and often an irrelevant way to compare overall graphics performance.

So much wrong with this post.

You do know the 1950xtx was the fastest DX9 GPU ever made right? And that arch was what the GPU's chip is based off. Pretty much gutted the cores but kept the front and back end, the pixel pipeline and vertex shaders (the main cores) were replaced with a unified shader design. Pretty much the first Terascale chip the public got to use. So while there is no real way to test, the Xbox's GPU may actually be faster than a full blown 1950xtx. The ps3 had what is pretty much a 7800gt, nothing special about it and the weak point of the sony console.


Also Athlon x2's were not common, nor were any dual core. Most had single cores. And while Single core wise they were faster, the 360 had a better CPU at the time for optimized gaming.

The tri-core chip inside the xbox was not designed to be faster than pc processors. But it did have a FPU that was comparable in terms of floating point performance to high end cpu's of the time, as well as plenty of interger performance for the system to grow. The system was never held back because of the CPU. The PS3 was a special case as it used the spe's as a means of more Floating Point Power. While the things you would use it for now can easily be done on a GPU, back then that was not the case. The Cell Boosted what the system was able to output graphically by a fair amount, and without it would have never have beaten the 360 in graphics (even if it was only on a handful of games overall, mostly later in life).


Also when the n64 launched it had the fastest 3d chip on the market. The console was full of limitations though, but it did have some pretty sick hardware for the time. Wasn't even till the Voodoo2 that PC's started to even compare to the n64 in terms of 3D Graphics power. And as for n64 CPU, it was designed to be low power. High end Intel CPU's at the time we multitude higher in cost than the n64 as a whole.


Crysis could run on the 360 and ps3, ram was a big factor on why is was not. Game was bloated, also unoptimized. So probably would deal with the same frame drops people on PC had when it came to ice or guns with special effects.
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post #272 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by DzillaXx View Post

So much wrong with this post.

You do know the 1950xtx was the fastest DX9 GPU ever made right? And that arch was what the GPU's chip is based off. Pretty much gutted the cores but kept the front and back end, the pixel pipeline and vertex shaders (the main cores) were replaced with a unified shader design. Pretty much the first Terascale chip the public got to use. So while there is no real way to test, the Xbox's GPU may actually be faster than a full blown 1950xtx. The ps3 had what is pretty much a 7800gt, nothing special about it and the weak point of the sony console.


Also Athlon x2's were not common, nor were any dual core. Most had single cores. And while Single core wise they were faster, the 360 had a better CPU at the time for optimized gaming.

The tri-core chip inside the xbox was not designed to be faster than pc processors. But it did have a FPU that was comparable in terms of floating point performance to high end cpu's of the time, as well as plenty of interger performance for the system to grow. The system was never held back because of the CPU. The PS3 was a special case as it used the spe's as a means of more Floating Point Power. While the things you would use it for now can easily be done on a GPU, back then that was not the case. The Cell Boosted what the system was able to output graphically by a fair amount, and without it would have never have beaten the 360 in graphics (even if it was only on a handful of games overall, mostly later in life).


Also when the n64 launched it had the fastest 3d chip on the market. The console was full of limitations though, but it did have some pretty sick hardware for the time. Wasn't even till the Voodoo2 that PC's started to even compare to the n64 in terms of 3D Graphics power. And as for n64 CPU, it was designed to be low power. High end Intel CPU's at the time we multitude higher in cost than the n64 as a whole.


Crysis could run on the 360 and ps3, ram was a big factor on why is was not. Game was bloated, also unoptimized. So probably would deal with the same frame drops people on PC had when it came to ice or guns with special effects.

Xbox 360 did not have 1950XTX sadly. It more in like of X1900XT downclocked. I have not studied much CPU architecture design but after asking a friend which is very knowledgeable in IBM CPU he has told me that Xbox 360 CPU looks good on paper but in actuality was as fast as PC processors. One the the biggest problems was in-order code execution making 6T not very effective. Also because it did not have fast instructions it was like P4 and needed high clock speeds. On top of all that it had very slow cache.
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post #273 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZealotKi11er View Post

Xbox 360 did not have 1950XTX sadly. It more in like of X1900XT downclocked. I have not studied much CPU architecture design but after asking a friend which is very knowledgeable in IBM CPU he has told me that Xbox 360 CPU looks good on paper but in actuality was as fast as PC processors. One the the biggest problems was in-order code execution making 6T not very effective. Also because it did not have fast instructions it was like P4 and needed high clock speeds. On top of all that it had very slow cache.

You went from "Lolol Consoles were never faster than PC" to scraping the barrel to try and prove otherwise with nothing factual.

Goes to show lol....

I bet you eyes are open now, instead of blindly hating on consoles.
post #274 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by budgetgamer120 View Post

You went from "Lolol Consoles were never faster than PC" to scraping the barrel to try and prove otherwise with nothing factual.

Goes to show lol....

I bet you eyes are open now, instead of blindly hating on consoles.

I am sorry but I am proving facts here. You have not even shown a single thing.
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post #275 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZealotKi11er View Post

Xbox 360 did not have 1950XTX sadly. It more in like of X1900XT downclocked. I have not studied much CPU architecture design but after asking a friend which is very knowledgeable in IBM CPU he has told me that Xbox 360 CPU looks good on paper but in actuality was as fast as PC processors. One the the biggest problems was in-order code execution making 6T not very effective. Also because it did not have fast instructions it was like P4 and needed high clock speeds. On top of all that it had very slow cache.

But the 360 wasn't using a direct copy.

It was using the front and backend from that arch.

As for Shader Core performance best we can compare them to is what we got with the hd 2900 (granted the 2900 uses a higher scaled design where each core does less work). As the 360 is pretty much using the first version of Terascale gpu arch that powered ATI cards till GCN.

So really kinda hard to compare the xbox gpu to the x1900 series directly mostly because of the difference. I would say the early terascale cores are faster than the older pixal/vertex cores in the x1900 series. So I would even go to say that atleast with optimizations that the 360's GPU is faster than the x1950xtx.

Kinda hard to compare them clock for clock when the GPU Core themselves are different. Which is why I would go and call it the fastest GPU at time of release.


Also as for the CPU.

Consoles don't use the CPU the same as a PC. Integer performance is not as important. Which is why the PS3 only had a single Integer core. The Chip still had more Floating Point Performance than the standard high end PC CPU. Which is what came consoles needed the most. Remember Floating Point unit and integer units are two different parts of a CPU.
Edited by DzillaXx - 4/11/17 at 9:35am
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post #276 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by DzillaXx View Post

But the 360 wasn't using a direct copy.

It was using the front and backend from that arch.

As for Shader Core performance best we can compare them to is what we got with the hd 2900 (granted the 2900 uses a higher scaled design where each core does less work). As the 360 is pretty much using the first version of Terascale gpu arch that powered ATI cards till GCN.

So really kinda hard to compare the xbox gpu to the x1900 series directly mostly because of the difference. I would say the early terascale cores are faster than the older pixal/vertex cores in the x1900 series. So I would even go to say that atleast with optimizations that the 360's GPU is faster than the x1950xtx.

Kinda hard to compare them clock for clock when the GPU Core themselves are different. Which is why I would go and call it the fastest GPU at time of release.


Also as for the CPU.

Consoles don't use the CPU the same as a PC. Integer performance is not as important. Which is why the PS3 only had a single Integer core. The Chip still had more Floating Point Performance than the standard high end PC CPU. Which is what came consoles needed the most. Remember Floating Point unit and integer units are two different parts of a CPU.

I think they are slower. 1900XT has 48 while 2900 had 320.
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post #277 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZealotKi11er View Post

I think they are slower. 1900XT has 48 while 2900 had 320.

The 2900 used weaker cores in a high scale design.

I edited my post before to kinda explain.

But the base design of the 2900 cores came from the 360's shader cores.

The 360 cores were just doing more work.

So I guess there is no real arch to compare it to.

But the performance per core would be around the same as a pixel pipeline on the x1900xt. One would assume, if not little faster or slower (but i'm going with faster)


So while there really isn't any physical proof stating that the 360 gpu was or wasnot faster than the x1950xtx, it is mostly agreed upon that it was. It was pretty much the R&D that created the Terascale arch for the hd2000 series. There is no proof that the 360's GPU was not the fastest GPU at release, as it clearly was. They took the X1900 chip and pretty much turned it into a custom chip, gutting the old cores and replacing them with early shader cores. Among other console specific improvements. Which is probably why the 360 was so much better in terms of games being smooth and not a frame dropping mess that was the PS3. I still have my BC PS3, Borrowed Assassins creed 2 back in the day for it, couldn't stand the frame drops. Ended up buying the game for the 360.
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post #278 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by DzillaXx View Post

You do know the 1950xtx was the fastest DX9 GPU ever made right?

As of last week the Titan Xp is the fastest DX9 GPU ever made.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DzillaXx View Post

So while there is no real way to test, the Xbox's GPU may actually be faster than a full blown 1950xtx.

Unlikely, though it's architecture was halfway between R580 and R600 and thus more advanced than what would be available on PC until the 2900 and 8800 lines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DzillaXx View Post

Also Athlon x2's were not common, nor were any dual core. Most had single cores.

So?

The argument is that a PC could have been made at XBox 360 launch that would have provided better performance/visuals than an XBox 360 at launch.

Athlon X2s were available prior to the launch of the XBox 360.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DzillaXx View Post

And while Single core wise they were faster, the 360 had a better CPU at the time for optimized gaming.

They had a better CPU for console use, but in most tangible ways it was not faster than the high-end x86 parts available.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DzillaXx View Post

The tri-core chip inside the xbox was not designed to be faster than pc processors. But it did have a FPU that was comparable in terms of floating point performance to high end cpu's of the time, as well as plenty of interger performance for the system to grow. The system was never held back because of the CPU. The PS3 was a special case as it used the spe's as a means of more Floating Point Power. While the things you would use it for now can easily be done on a GPU, back then that was not the case. The Cell Boosted what the system was able to output graphically by a fair amount, and without it would have never have beaten the 360 in graphics (even if it was only on a handful of games overall, mostly later in life).

I didn't dispute any of that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DzillaXx View Post

Also when the n64 launched it had the fastest 3d chip on the market. The console was full of limitations though, but it did have some pretty sick hardware for the time. Wasn't even till the Voodoo2 that PC's started to even compare to the n64 in terms of 3D Graphics power. And as for n64 CPU, it was designed to be low power. High end Intel CPU's at the time we multitude higher in cost than the n64 as a whole.

Also not in dispute.

Again, the argument is that a PC that could be made at the time of the N64 launch would game with better performance and IQ than the N64 was capable of, and this is demonstrably true. A high end PC in mid-late 2006 didn't need any 3D hardware to produce higher-fidelity 3D graphics at better frame rates than the N64 could manage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DzillaXx View Post

So much wrong with this post.

No, barring a few minor chronological inaccuracies that I had corrected long prior to your post my post is fine. Only your mistaken assumptions about what I was arguing is causing you to think otherwise.

I wasn't arguing value, suitability for console use, innovation, technological advancement, or anything of the sort. I was simply arguing against the fallacy that console hardware, in raw, practical power (ability to run games), was superior to that available in the x86 PC space at the time of their launch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by budgetgamer120 View Post

hating on consoles.

No one is hating on consoles.

There is a big difference between pointing fallacious statements ("x console was faster than n PC"), or the logical failings of the 'facts' used to support them ("these completely theoretical figures derived from basic extrapolation are comparable to these actual benchmark scores"), and having an issue with the thing being misrepresented.

It's your misrepresentations people are taking issue with, not consoles.
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post #279 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by DzillaXx View Post

So while there really isn't any physical proof stating that the 360 gpu was or wasnot faster than the x1950xtx, it is mostly agreed upon that it was. It was pretty much the R&D that created the Terascale arch for the hd2000 series. There is no proof that the 360's GPU was not the fastest GPU at release, as it clearly was.

The Xenos GPU (AMD's first VLIW5 unified shader part) was the most advanced GPU at the time of it's release and probably had the most practical shader power available. That doesn't make it the fastest GPU, because shader performance has never been everything.

The XBox 360 GPU would almost certainly have choked at the resolutions I had been playing games at for years when it was released, simply because of the enormous filtrate deficit.
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post #280 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

The Xenos GPU (AMD's first VLIW5 unified shader part) was the most advanced GPU at the time of it's release and probably had the most practical shader power available. That doesn't make it the fastest GPU, because shader performance has never been everything.

The XBox 360 GPU would almost certainly have choked at the resolutions I had been playing games at for years when it was released, simply because of the enormous filtrate deficit.

The problem with consoles is that by the time developers learn to fully optimize for them they are 2-3 years old. By then PC is 2-3x times faster easily. With x86 because its easier to code you get similar off the line games and with mid cycle refresh you surpass the old gen in terms of power 3-4 years. Xbox 360 was active from 2005-2013. That is 8 years in service. What good is being 1 year better for PC if it will be trashed for the next 7 years?
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