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[MyDrivers.com] GeForce 20 series to be released later this year (Volta) - Page 3

post #21 of 98
I've seen a few RX 580 reviews today and seems like the 1060 is dead now(almost).Nvidia need to respond with a 1060 ti type card at +- $270 to put some presure on AMD in the mid-end again.
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post #22 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahigan View Post

No it isn't.

You're thinking about streaming in textures leading to GPU stalls (how things have been done thus far). That's not how Vega works. Rather than pausing the GPU in order to stream in textures (or using Asynchronous Compute in order to allow streaming in parallel with other work on the GPU), HBCC retains all of the required and most frequently accessed information in the framebuffer and then can stream and access data residing outside of the framebuffer, on any storage device, without incurring a GPU stall. That means that the GPU never pauses, ever, utilization would be (most likely) in the 90+ percentile at all times (hence the tachometer AMD is introducing on the GPU).

So no, system RAM is no longer "too slow", neither would a hard drive or SSD be too slow and yes... this is a gaming feature. A +50% performance boost (avg FPS) and a +100% performance boost (min FPS) was claimed by AMD in Deus Ex due to this feature (this feature alone... we're not talking about any other changes in Vega here).

Yeah... Vega is not gunning for Pascal, it is gunning for Volta.

Not sure was a GPU stall due to memory overcommitment is?
source: https://developer.nvidia.com/pc-gpu-performance-hot-spots

With Vega, this is no longer an issue.

The second case is Texture Data Transfer related: http://www.crcnetbase.com/doi/abs/10.1201/b12288-35


Of course Asynchronous transfers only allow one way, at a time, bi-directional transfers. HBCC allows seamless streaming... two way bi-directional transfers.

I think you can see what this means.

I don't know how bi-directional it will be. Most likely it will just transfer what needed to the GPU.
But there are some mistakes in the understanding of the idea. It isn't really "seamless streaming".

What nvidia say is true, when over committing data to the GPU through huge buffers, once that memory ends on the GPU, it needs to "clean house" and get the new buffers.
Nvidia's "fix" is just put more memory on the GPU, hence the 11/12GB of their top end cards. Also through careful work on optimizing the software.

That is an issue that AMD doesn't solve exactly. The GPU will still need to fetch the memory, and AMD it seems isn't going to put 16GB on their top end card.
So their fix of the HBCC is that they are making the pool of GPU in the system memory, and the GPU will only get what it actually needs through the HBCC management.

It doesn't provide +50%/+100% boosts. That is the wrong interpretation of what it can do.

From here:
Quote:
AMD also went on to show how HBCC seemingly halves memory requirements, by deliberately capping the amount of addressable memory on the HBCC-aware system to only 2 GB - half of the 4 GB addressable by the non-HBCC-aware system, while claiming that even so, the HBCC-enabled system still showed "the same or better performance" through its better memory management and bandwidth speeds. If these results do hold up to scrutiny, this should benefit implementations of "Vega" with lower amounts of video memory, while simultaneously reducing production costs and overall end-user pricing, since smaller memory pools would be needed for the same effect.

Meaning their idea is to instead use 4GB of memory, to use 2GB, without losing performance.
Another way to see is that instead of putting costly HBM2 stacks of memory, they can use less, and just put 8GB of HBM2 on the vega, and still get performance results that nvidia get with 12GB.

It won't make their GPU +50% faster compared to similar situation.
Basically if a game engine doesn't commit so much memory, and can stay under the 8GB of memory to the GPU in buffers, you basically have the HBCC doing nothing. And with nvidia using 11/12GB, doesn't have as much of a problem.

The future benefit of it, is if developers use huge 8K textures, which will cause nvidia cards to bottleneck on the GPU memory, but AMD will have the HBCC, which means they will not suffer as much.
It can be useful for AMD in the future. I hope.
There is also the issue of actual system memory, textures loading etc, which even with using fast SSD and fast memory, people aren't gong to put 512TB of memory in their system, with being capped anyway by the system.
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post #23 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

I don't know how bi-directional it will be. Most likely it will just transfer what needed to the GPU.
But there are some mistakes in the understanding of the idea. It isn't really "seamless streaming".

What nvidia say is true, when over committing data to the GPU through huge buffers, once that memory ends on the GPU, it needs to "clean house" and get the new buffers.
Nvidia's "fix" is just put more memory on the GPU, hence the 11/12GB of their top end cards. Also through careful work on optimizing the software.

That is an issue that AMD doesn't solve exactly. The GPU will still need to fetch the memory, and AMD it seems isn't going to put 16GB on their top end card.
So their fix of the HBCC is that they are making the pool of GPU in the system memory, and the GPU will only get what it actually needs through the HBCC management.

It doesn't provide +50%/+100% boosts. That is the wrong interpretation of what it can do.

From here:
Meaning their idea is to instead use 4GB of memory, to use 2GB, without losing performance.
Another way to see is that instead of putting costly HBM2 stacks of memory, they can use less, and just put 8GB of HBM2 on the vega, and still get performance results that nvidia get with 12GB.

It won't make their GPU +50% faster compared to similar situation.
Basically if a game engine doesn't commit so much memory, and can stay under the 8GB of memory to the GPU in buffers, you basically have the HBCC doing nothing. And with nvidia using 11/12GB, doesn't have as much of a problem.

The future benefit of it, is if developers use huge 8K textures, which will cause nvidia cards to bottleneck on the GPU memory, but AMD will have the HBCC, which means they will not suffer as much.
It can be useful for AMD in the future. I hope.
There is also the issue of actual system memory, textures loading etc, which even with using fast SSD and fast memory, people aren't gong to put 512TB of memory in their system, with being capped anyway by the system.

The GPU doesn't need to fetch anything, hence the onboard High Bandwidth Cache Controller. Deus Ex isn't a future title, it is a current title. The developers will need to code for it but the fetch does not occur at the GPU level, it occurs at the controller level. This allows for seamless data transfers (and no GPU stalls). You can overcommit and not need to flush anything (provided that the title is optimized to be HBCC aware), the HBCC will handle the task of keeping frequently access data in the framebuffer without hitting the GPU or causing a stall.

This isn't a misinterpretation, this is actually how it works. The Tech media tends to be rather poor at explaining anything absent GPU makers sending them pretty slides.

Why would AMD do this? They don't need to then hire programmers to optimize every title as they did for the FuryX. It saves them $$$. The HBCC will pretty much do what an AMD driver programmer was doing but also do it better. The GPU can keep processing compute and render workloads while the HBCC swaps data back and forth.

One of AMDs weak points has been GPU utilization, this helps alleviate some of that.
Edited by Mahigan - 4/18/17 at 7:54am
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post #24 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

Mid tier and lower Volta will likely run GDDR5X, high-end Volta will have HBM2.

 

You may likely be right, however I'm trying to remember if we heard the same prior to Pascal launching? That Pascal's high end would have HBM2...?

 

I don't think there's enough time for some new tech to drive speculation sideways so hopefully we get an HBM implementation that matters and actually does something special. I'm more worried that Nvidia will put the brakes on anything too far out there in performance as they'll see no need unless Vega pushes them.

post #25 of 98
$550 1170 incoming because it is titan performance for half the money thumb.gif
post #26 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghoxt View Post

You may likely be right, however I'm trying to remember if we heard the same prior to Pascal launching? That Pascal's high end would have HBM2...?

I don't think there's enough time for some new tech to drive speculation sideways so hopefully we get an HBM implementation that matters and actually does something special. I'm more worried that Nvidia will put the brakes on anything too far out there in performance as they'll see no need unless Vega pushes them.

Correct, that was the speculation here.
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post #27 of 98
article out a day before RX 500 series
not suspicious
     
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post #28 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossie2000 View Post

I've seen a few RX 580 reviews today and seems like the 1060 is dead now(almost).Nvidia need to respond with a 1060 ti type card at +- $270 to put some presure on AMD in the mid-end again.

What are you talking about the 1060 beats the RX 580 in Grand Theft Auto 5, Battlefield 4, Dirt Rally, Crysis 3, and Witcher 3, while it loses in Hitman and The Division . Now this is the FE version and not a custom card while the RX 580 had the highest clocked card out there which is the Power Color Red Devil RX 580.

ANANDTECH

It only trades blows with it and doesn't really make it dead. You also forget that the 1060 consumes less power and can still be overclocked so the 1060 is not dead. thumb.gif

To directly quote Anandtech:

"As for the competitive landscape then, AMD’s situation has improved, though I fear by not enough. Across the full spread of games in our benchmark suite, the RX 580 and GTX 1060 6GB change lead a few different times, so the RX 580 is able to best NVIDIA’s best in absolute performance in the right games. The problem for AMD is that those games appear to be too few; as a result the RX 580 trails the GTX 1060 by an average of 7% at both 1080p and 1440p. AMD has narrowed the gap somewhat – this was an 11% deficit with the RX 480 – but not by enough. And coupled with AMD’s worse power efficiency, this puts AMD in a tough spot. The biggest challenge right now is that GTX 1060 prices have come down to the same $229 spot just in time for the RX 500 series launch, so AMD doesn’t have a consistent price advantage. That’s the one thing AMD can change, and it’s likely to be where they need to look next."
Edited by mark_thaddeus - 4/18/17 at 8:24am
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post #30 of 98
Those poor Xp owners. Money ain't a thing for them I guess.
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