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post #101 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalUnicorn View Post

I can't really say Microsoft has done anything horribly offensive there. New versions of their API only supported with new versions of their operating system? Gee, what a surprise! Not supporting new hardware on old operating systems (which, incidentally, the hardware manufacturers aren't doing either)? Shocking! They deserve to be criticized but not for these reasons, at least not to any significant extent.

You misinterpreted what I said. I don't want a monopoly. However, if we must have one, I can tell you now based on what Nvidia is doing with only a decent lead that the market would quickly turn to crap. Contrast with, for example, Intel, who practically has had a monopoly in the professional, server, and high-end markets for years yet has kept prices at a given tier consistent each generation. Nvidia meanwhile is charging more for their Gx104-tier GPUs today than they did for their Gx100-tier GPUs a few years ago. That's completely ridiculous.

It's pretty rude to insinuate I'm a fanboy. But hey, this is ocn at the end of the day. wink.gif

What Intel is doing actually results in less progress and slower progress in terms of price and performance.

Sure they are keeping the price similar but your getting a smaller and smaller chip each time.

What Intel has done is by keeping cores count steady, your paying the same money but their margins are really fat because they are using new nodes to decrease cost for themselves rather than increase performance. Lynnfield was a 296mm2 chip and it was all cpu. No gpu part.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/9505/skylake-cpu-package-analysis

Skylake is 122mm2 with only 50 of that being used for cpu.

Intel has been basically been doing the same thing as nvidia. I.e you pay more for a smaller die but without the performance progress. So Intel is no better. The only thing is nvidia codenamed make it transparent. Also your getting much closer to the full product with nvidia high end. Nvidia gtx titans are pretty close to the full thing. Intel extreme editions? Your paying for a 18 core cpu with 8 of the cores disabled for 1500 dollars. Not only that, broadwell e is a 246mm2 die. Smaller than lynnfield. So nvidia is much better in this regard.

So Intel's behavior is no better. In fact worse because the lack of progress means chips become obsolete much slower and prices stay high longer.
post #102 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111 View Post

What Intel is doing actually results in less progress and slower progress in terms of price and performance.

Sure they are keeping the price similar but your getting a smaller and smaller chip each time.

Yes, and to be fair, smaller processes aren't cheap. Cost per transistor is less but cost per unit area increases, I believe.

Quote:
What Intel has done is by keeping cores count steady, your paying the same money but their margins are really fat because they are using new nodes to decrease cost for themselves rather than increase performance. Lynnfield was a 296mm2 chip and it was all cpu. No gpu part.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/9505/skylake-cpu-package-analysis

Skylake is 122mm2 with only 50 of that being used for cpu.

Correct. What's your point? If you're buying LGA-115X for HEDT, you're looking in the very wrong place. The real gains have been happening with LGA-2011. They have been for years. 8-core Sandy to 12-core Ivy to 18-core Haswell to 24-core Broadwell and soon supposedly 28-core Skylake. If you want a part without half the die space dedicated to a "worthless" GPU, then buy these. You get more memory channels and cache as well.

Complaining about the 6700K being half GPU is about as ridiculous as me complaining that my A10-7870K is half GPU. That's literally the entire point of these things, to be as close to all-in-one systems-on-chips as possible. That's not what enthusiasts buy them for, but that's obviously Intel's (and AMD's, though their HEDT platform is much cheaper) goal by including the integrated graphics. And given the number of OEM systems sporting Intel HD stickers on them, it seems to be doing well for them.

Quote:
Intel has been basically been doing the same thing as nvidia. I.e you pay more for a smaller die but without the performance progress. So Intel is no better. The only thing is nvidia codenamed make it transparent. Also your getting much closer to the full product with nvidia high end. Nvidia gtx titans are pretty close to the full thing. Intel extreme editions? Your paying for a 18 core cpu with 8 of the cores disabled for 1500 dollars. Not only that, broadwell e is a 246mm2 die. Smaller than lynnfield. So nvidia is much better in this regard.

So Intel's behavior is no better. In fact worse because the lack of progress means chips become obsolete much slower and prices stay high longer.

But that's not true at all. Broadwell, for instance, comes in three flavors. There is a 10-core die, a 15-core die, and a 24-core die. That 246mm^2 die doesn't have 24 cores on it. It has 10. The 24 core die is nearly twice as large, weighing in at 454mm^2. If some of the cores are disabled, so what? You're paying for a CPU with 6 or 8 functioning cores, and it is priced appropriately. That goes for GPUs as well. It'd be pretty ridiculous to expect any company to manufacturer separate silicon chips for each and every possible core count - yields would be awful and the return on investment would match.

Additionally, my concern isn't die size. My concern is product tiers. If I give Intel $2000 for a Xeon, I expect to in return get something with above-average clockspeeds for its architecture, using the medium-sized die, with a couple cores disabled. If you look at the E5-2687W tier, from Sandy through Broadwell, this has generally held true. Meanwhile, if I give Nvidia $700 for a GTX 1080 today, I'm only getting the 104-tier GPU, formerly the next-best chipset. But in 2013, I would have received a disabled GK110-based 780 for less money. All the way back to 2010 and for less money still I would have gotten a full-fat GF110-based 580. That's not something Intel is doing.

Worse, Nvidia isn't even offering their top-tier GPU to consumers anymore! They have no GP100-based graphics card available with a GeForce label. They created GP102 specifically for this market, relegating features such as boosted FP64 and FP16 ratios and HBM itself to the uber-high-end Teslas designed for compute. There is a GP100-based Quadro now, but that took months to arrive.
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post #103 of 108
Intel increase its top tier price by 70% while nvidia increase by 20% with 60% real performance.

Nvidia is way better than that crippling blue.
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post #104 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by guttheslayer View Post

Intel increase its top tier price by 70% while nvidia increase by 20% with 60% real performance.

Nvidia is way better than that crippling blue.

 

Intel made available to consumers a die that only had been branded as a Xeon and fully locked down. That die has its closest counterpart found on the 2640v4, a $980 chip that only runs at 2.4GHz base clocks and 3.4GHz turbo.

 

For the premium over that, you get an unlocked multiplier and clockspeeds only found in the W-series of Xeons - and if we look for the closest workstation Xeon in terms of clockspeeds, the closest match is the 2687Wv4, a $2141 12-core chip.

 

 

In that respect, Intel isn't pushing the performance as far as they could, but at least their pricing schemes are consistent. Even in the X lineup.

   
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post #105 of 108
I find it hilarious ppl are justifying consumer level pricing against workstation hardware.

If nvidia follow this trend they will be charging their titan lineup for $5000 since it is consistent with their workstation quadro.


Lol.
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post #106 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by guttheslayer View Post

I find it hilarious ppl are justifying consumer level pricing against workstation hardware.

If nvidia follow this trend they will be charging their titan lineup for $5000 since it is consistent with their workstation quadro.


Lol.

In the liquid element PCI-E SSD thread about a workstation card.
Quote:
Originally Posted by guttheslayer View Post

I wonder how does this compare against the 3D-crosspoint for daily workload and intense high end gaming. biggrin.gif

rolleyes.gif
post #107 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmonnin View Post

In the liquid element PCI-E SSD thread about a workstation card.
rolleyes.gif

I dont see your point. Just because I compared a WS component like SSD to a consumer lvl optane, doesn't mean the pricing have to follow suit. did I mentioned Optane need to be priced as expensive as the liquid element SSD?


The SSD thread was merely compared to see just how good the performance is, it is just that.

In the past I even used Quadro P6000 to compare with the OG Titan XP to see how much performance a full blown GP102 can offer. But I never talk about pricing. so what is your point in this?
Edited by guttheslayer - 4/28/17 at 10:00am
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post #108 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post

Intel made available to consumers a die that only had been branded as a Xeon and fully locked down. That die has its closest counterpart found on the 2640v4, a $980 chip that only runs at 2.4GHz base clocks and 3.4GHz turbo.

For the premium over that, you get an unlocked multiplier and clockspeeds only found in the W-series of Xeons - and if we look for the closest workstation Xeon in terms of clockspeeds, the closest match is the 2687Wv4, a $2141 12-core chip.


In that respect, Intel isn't pushing the performance as far as they could, but at least their pricing schemes are consistent. Even in the X lineup.


Let me give a better explanation on why such comparison is not valid.


Just because 6950X have a specification close to a 2687Wv4 which is more expensive at $2141, doesnt justified why a consumer based I7-6950X should be priced closed to a Workstation Xeon.


Workstation and Consumer hardware are always on a different league, and always have been, especially in pricing.


Intel P3700 & Intel 750 SSD are some of the good examples. They are essentially the same stuff but their pricing are completely different, solely because they are targeted at different market.

Titan Xp and Quadro P6000 are made with same GPU with same amount of cores unlocked, but do you see their pricing close to one another? Heck, even the Quadro P5000 with the same core as GTX 1080 is much more expensive than a bigger Titan Xp.


The fact that Intel dare to price their consumer so closed in pricing to their WS counterpart goes to shows their arrogance in all these years of dominating the CPU market.
Edited by guttheslayer - 4/28/17 at 10:23am
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