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[BI] Tesla's semi truck can be driven around 'like a sports car' - Page 13

post #121 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericanLoco View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

Do you struggle with reading? I have been very clear to specify when I am speaking about just the engine, just the transmission and an entire drive-train. Go back and read it again if it was hard the first time.
The entire drivetrain is an engine, transmission and rear axle. A Cummins ISX 15 is 3000 Pounds, an Eaton 13 speed is 720 pounds. Where are you getting the other 2300 pounds from?
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Okay, so now instead of being 10x, it's more like 3 times.

Except you can't do regenerative braking or solar tops on a gas truck. All energy used is wasted, even idle, but electric can recharge itself by various means up to and including using a small ICE like the Prius as a last resort.

Seems between that and the much shorter max range (irrelevant due to simple time-per-day restrictions if you can just swap the whole thing at a stop), they're about on parity.
No, it's 10x factoring in the efficiency difference. Diesel fuel has over 40x the energy density of the best lithium batteries. So even factoring in that the electric drivetrain is 3x more efficient, you're going to need 13x the batteries. To match a 300 gallon diesel fuel tank you would need 27,000 pounds worth of batteries.

No, it's 10x by weight of only the gasoline vs battery. You can drop that to a 100-gal tank to make distance comparable, but you'll only drop 1400lbs. Take that remaining 700lbs of gas and add in the weight of everything required to use that gas, every single bit of it including the oil.

Now take the weight of everything required to use the battery, plus the weight of the batteries. They're not so far apart given you do not actually need 9000lbs of batteries due to support options such as regen breaking and solar. Then rebuild the actual body because you don't need an engine. Make it more aerodynamic, make it smaller, make it lighter. When they become self driving, do it again as you no longer need to support a crew.

Everyone keeps talking about gas vs battery and ignores everything else, like not needing to shift gears ever, or massively more fine tuned and faster reaction control to avoid wasteful energy expense. The >500mile limit doesn't actually matter given you can only drive for 8 hours and 65mph without stopping anyway, regardless of how big your team is, provided you can swap your whole pack and have near zero down time.
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post #122 of 334
1. Battery Size will have to be 15x larger due to 80,000 lb weight limits.
2. Battery stations will need to be larger and push much more juice into what I'd assume are multiple batteries that can all charge simultaneously for fast charging.
3. Gas stations would have to be equipped with Semi Charging stations like some stations are Semi Fuel stations (much larger etc).
4. Cost per Semi will increase, and they drive much more than cars so battery usage will increase and there will be a larger volume of dead batteries (not good right now as reviving them is expensive)
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post #123 of 334
It's amazing how many people are commenting here without having read any of the linked articles.
     
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post #124 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

The new 2170 cells have ~50% more charge than the outgoing high end Li-ion. With a small network of swap-ready batteries you could easily get a semi-truck an incredible distance in the legal allowed amount of time a person can drive. One swap at ~300 miles will allow a driver to fill a full legal shift in a day with minutes of down time.

To give you an idea of power to weight of engines.....

The Koenigsegg Regera has a hybrid system with a combined drive-train weight of about 500 lbs. This drive-train puts out 1500 HP and almost 2000 Lb ft of torque. By comparison just the Detroit Diesel DD15 weighs in at 2970 lbs, generates 500 HP, and ~1850 Lb ft of torque. Just by gutting the diesel you have room for ~2400 lbs worth of battery which is two Tesla Model S batteries.

You still have the fuel tanks to gut, the ~2300 lb transmission to gut, the heavier brakes are gutted as well. Rough math puts it at about 6 model S batteries on a semi and you keep the same weight.

Put technology out 10 years from now and you won't have diesel semi-trucks on the road anymore. They will be autonomous and electric, costing just pennies per mile to operate.
The implementation of the technologies is the reason - not the method. In an all electric system you won't have these types of failure points as systems are redundant and just better engineered. Trying to draw conclusions about the future based off what (old tech) you have seen today isn't very wise.

I respectfully disagree with that assessment. It will be far more than 10 years before we see ICE semis replaced by electric semis. It will probably be even longer before human drivers are completely replaced by autonomous big rigs on the road. I remember people saying the same thing 10 years ago tbh. Ten years really is not that long a time for such drastic and major change to be implemented (and the trucking unions will not be going down without a fight).
post #125 of 334
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

I respectfully disagree with that assessment. It will be far more than 10 years before we see ICE semis replaced by electric semis. It will probably be even longer before human drivers are completely replaced by autonomous big rigs on the road. I remember people saying the same thing 10 years ago tbh. Ten years really is not that long a time for such drastic and major change to be implemented (and the trucking unions will not be going down without a fight).

In case you missed the memo. Some will be replaced after September this year lol
post #126 of 334
I'm talking about full replacement of all ICE trucks, as Postal keeps promising.
post #127 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

No, it's 10x by weight of only the gasoline vs battery. You can drop that to a 100-gal tank to make distance comparable, but you'll only drop 1400lbs. Take that remaining 700lbs of gas and add in the weight of everything required to use that gas, every single bit of it including the oil.

Now take the weight of everything required to use the battery, plus the weight of the batteries. They're not so far apart given you do not actually need 9000lbs of batteries due to support options such as regen breaking and solar. Then rebuild the actual body because you don't need an engine. Make it more aerodynamic, make it smaller, make it lighter. When they become self driving, do it again as you no longer need to support a crew.

Everyone keeps talking about gas vs battery and ignores everything else, like not needing to shift gears ever, or massively more fine tuned and faster reaction control to avoid wasteful energy expense. The >500mile limit doesn't actually matter given you can only drive for 8 hours and 65mph without stopping anyway, regardless of how big your team is, provided you can swap your whole pack and have near zero down time.
What on earth are you talking about? Diesel fuel has 46 MJ/kg of energy. The best lithium batteries are around 0.9 MJ/kg. A typical diesel truck holds 300 gallons of fuel, or 2100 pounds of fuel. The all electric drivetrain is about 3x more efficient, so instead of needing 40x the weight in batteries, you only need 13x - which is still over 25,000 pounds of batteries.

Regen braking is cool, but useless for long-haul trucks that drive lots of highway. Solar is cool tool, exept an entire trailer lined with panels won't increase range by a meaningful amount.

Your comments about body redesign are not really valid either. You still need a place to put the electric motor, the batteries, the associated control equipment, etc..
post #128 of 334
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericanLoco View Post

What on earth are you talking about? Diesel fuel has 46 MJ/kg of energy. The best lithium batteries are around 0.9 MJ/kg. A typical diesel truck holds 300 gallons of fuel, or 2100 pounds of fuel. The all electric drivetrain is about 3x more efficient, so instead of needing 40x the weight in batteries, you only need 13x - which is still over 25,000 pounds of batteries.

Regen braking is cool, but useless for long-haul trucks that drive lots of highway. Solar is cool tool, exept an entire trailer lined with panels won't increase range by a meaningful amount.

Your comments about body redesign are not really valid either. You still need a place to put the electric motor, the batteries, the associated control equipment, etc..

The trucks will have 2 tonne battery packs and estimated 500miles per charge. According to Musk.
post #129 of 334
2 tonnes of battery packs should be nice and cheap...
post #130 of 334
Just to enlighten the subject a little further.....

The cost to dig up the diesel tanks and replace them with charging stations for tractors would be outrageous. Empty tanks can't be left in the ground according to EPA. It's basically a bomb so has to be removed. Then the risk of contamination during the removal process...... It's cheaper to leave the tanks in the ground and continue using diesel fuel.

And what would it cost really to charge say 100 tractors EVERY DAY, assuming a 300 mile round trip (which isn't far really) local.

There would be absolutely NOTHING cheap about larger trucking companies to switch from diesel fuels to all electric in one shot. The process would take months and the down time would close that trucking company in that time period.

Batteries need to be tested during preventative maintenance. My shop would have to hire extra people just for that alone. Chasing wires could wind up taking hours.

And I laugh when people think computers are a good thing in harsh environments. As it is now, most ECMs are bolted onto the engine block to regulate the temperature of that computer. They even have liquid cooling on the backside just for that reason. In the last year, we've replaced at least three ECM modules on our series 60 motors. It's stupid. I'm glad they don't run windows operating systems cause the trucking companies would be really screwed while the driver gets a blue screen on his instrument cluster panel and no longer has any type of control of his rig while cruising 70 miles per hour down the road.......

But hey, what would I know? I've only been dealing with this electrical crap the last 20 years or so......
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