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post #131 of 334
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShrimpBrime View Post

Just to enlighten the subject a little further.....

The cost to dig up the diesel tanks and replace them with charging stations for tractors would be outrageous. Empty tanks can't be left in the ground according to EPA. It's basically a bomb so has to be removed. Then the risk of contamination during the removal process...... It's cheaper to leave the tanks in the ground and continue using diesel fuel.

And what would it cost really to charge say 100 tractors EVERY DAY, assuming a 300 mile round trip (which isn't far really) local.

There would be absolutely NOTHING cheap about larger trucking companies to switch from diesel fuels to all electric in one shot. The process would take months and the down time would close that trucking company in that time period.

Batteries need to be tested during preventative maintenance. My shop would have to hire extra people just for that alone. Chasing wires could wind up taking hours.

And I laugh when people think computers are a good thing in harsh environments. As it is now, most ECMs are bolted onto the engine block to regulate the temperature of that computer. They even have liquid cooling on the backside just for that reason. In the last year, we've replaced at least three ECM modules on our series 60 motors. It's stupid. I'm glad they don't run windows operating systems cause the trucking companies would be really screwed while the driver gets a blue screen on his instrument cluster panel and no longer has any type of control of his rig while cruising 70 miles per hour down the road.......

But hey, what would I know? I've only been dealing with this electrical crap the last 20 years or so......

Would be definitely be cheaper than refueling hundreds of gallon and wasting it at 7mpg.
post #132 of 334
Thread Starter 
I guess this self driving tech will go into the trucks.

https://electrek.co/2017/04/29/elon-musk-tesla-plan-level-5-full-autonomous-driving/
post #133 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShrimpBrime View Post

Just to enlighten the subject a little further...

The cost to dig up the diesel tanks and replace them with charging stations for tractors would be outrageous....

Batteries need to be tested during preventative maintenance. My shop would have to hire extra people just for that alone...

Did you read any of the linked articles? Truck owners wouldn't own and maintain the batteries; they would rent them and just swap them out when discharged. The swaps wouldn't take any more time than refueling with diesel, maybe even less. The truck owners wouldn't have to build their own charging stations or do their own testing and PMs.

Any fleet owner that replaced an entire fleet at once would have to be nuts; even more so if it is with brand new technology. There is no point in replacing perfectly good rolling stock so adoption of the new trucks would be gradual. It would be quite a while before in ground tanks would have to be dug up since adoption wouldn't be simultaneously across the board.
     
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post #134 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShrimpBrime View Post

Just to enlighten the subject a little further...

The cost to dig up the diesel tanks and replace them with charging stations for tractors would be outrageous....

Batteries need to be tested during preventative maintenance. My shop would have to hire extra people just for that alone...

Did you read any of the linked articles? Truck owners wouldn't own and maintain the batteries; they would rent them and just swap them out when discharged. The swaps wouldn't take any more time than refueling with diesel, maybe even less. The truck owners wouldn't have to build their own charging stations or do their own testing and PMs.

Any fleet owner that replaced an entire fleet at once would have to be nuts; even more so if it is with brand new technology. There is no point in replacing perfectly good rolling stock so adoption of the new trucks would be gradual. It would be quite a while before in ground tanks would have to be dug up since adoption wouldn't be simultaneously across the board.

Why would a truck owner not maintain his vehicle and the components on that vehicle? That's absurd.

Right now our newest tractor with a diesel motor costs about 115,000 dollars. I wouldn't be interested in purchasing a tractor where it's going to cost 150,000 dollars for full electric, then "rent" batteries, on top of the charging costs.

This tech has a very long way to go before it seems logical to replace anything we have not.
Quote:
The truck owners wouldn't have to do their own testing and PMs

Very totally wrong. Preventative maintenance includes the entire vehicle. Not just batteries. It just so happens that on our DOT sheets, the batteries must be checked and maintained whether it's being fastened down properly to simple things like terminal corrosion.

It's obvious you have no idea or any clue about DOT safety while the batteries are just one small part of a PM but very much included. Batteries are ALWAYS tested on a wet PM (B) and ALWAYS inspected on a dry PM (A).

And just because the system is full electric doesn't mean we have to stop or get to stop DOT inspections and preventative maintaining of our tractors.

Additional comment:

In case you are not aware of Tesla's CARS, the entire battery compartment is the entire bottom of the undercarriage. The entire vehicle is lifted off the ground for inspection, maintenance, repairs and replacement.

Diesel tractors are not so easily lifted off the ground ya know......
Edited by ShrimpBrime - 4/30/17 at 9:31am
post #135 of 334
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShrimpBrime View Post

Why would a truck owner not maintain his vehicle and the components on that vehicle? That's absurd.

Right now our newest tractor with a diesel motor costs about 115,000 dollars. I wouldn't be interested in purchasing a tractor where it's going to cost 150,000 dollars for full electric, then "rent" batteries, on top of the charging costs.

This tech has a very long way to go before it seems logical to replace anything we have not.
Very totally wrong. Preventative maintenance includes the entire vehicle. Not just batteries. It just so happens that on our DOT sheets, the batteries must be checked and maintained whether it's being fastened down properly to simple things like terminal corrosion.

It's obvious you have no idea or any clue about DOT safety while the batteries are just one small part of a PM but very much included. Batteries are ALWAYS tested on a wet PM (B) and ALWAYS inspected on a dry PM (A).

And just because the system is full electric doesn't mean we have to stop or get to stop DOT inspections and preventative maintaining of our tractors.

Additional comment:

In case you are not aware of Tesla's CARS, the entire battery compartment is the entire bottom of the undercarriage. The entire vehicle is lifted off the ground for inspection, maintenance, repairs and replacement.

Diesel tractors are not so easily lifted off the ground ya know......

What would you maintain on an electric tractor though. The electric motors and the battery? confused.gif


I would assume it is battery coolant and brake fluids like any other EV headscratch.gif

If you like to maintain then Evs aren't for you.
post #136 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShrimpBrime View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShrimpBrime View Post

Just to enlighten the subject a little further...

The cost to dig up the diesel tanks and replace them with charging stations for tractors would be outrageous....

Batteries need to be tested during preventative maintenance. My shop would have to hire extra people just for that alone...

Did you read any of the linked articles? Truck owners wouldn't own and maintain the batteries; they would rent them and just swap them out when discharged. The swaps wouldn't take any more time than refueling with diesel, maybe even less. The truck owners wouldn't have to build their own charging stations or do their own testing and PMs.

Any fleet owner that replaced an entire fleet at once would have to be nuts; even more so if it is with brand new technology. There is no point in replacing perfectly good rolling stock so adoption of the new trucks would be gradual. It would be quite a while before in ground tanks would have to be dug up since adoption wouldn't be simultaneously across the board.

Why would a truck owner not maintain his vehicle and the components on that vehicle? That's absurd.

Right now our newest tractor with a diesel motor costs about 115,000 dollars. I wouldn't be interested in purchasing a tractor where it's going to cost 150,000 dollars for full electric, then "rent" batteries, on top of the charging costs.

This tech has a very long way to go before it seems logical to replace anything we have not...

Either you didn't read the articles, as I strongly suspect, or your mind is stuck in the past and you refuse to open it to future possibilities (or both).

I never said that a truck owner wouldn't still have to maintain his vehicle and its components. I was referring to the fact the truck owner would not have to maintain and inspect the batteries. Daily preop inspections would still be need to be done on the truck itself. The inspections may be different in some ways but they wouldn't be any more difficult than they are now. I worked in warehousing for 30 years for the second largest electric utility in AZ. I've done daily, weekly, and monthly preops on gasoline powered forklifts, trucks, and mobile cranes, diesel powered forklifts, trucks (including semis; I had to preop them before I could even move them for loading in the morning before a shift and even in the evening after a shift, even though, technically, it was considered the same shift since I had no desire to risk my job by assuming the previous operator did a proper preop), and mobile cranes, battery powered forklifts, and electric pendant cranes. They were all different but the basics were similar and the training required to learn the differences were minimal. Assuming the batteries are interchangeable, as Mush has proposed, the company that exchanges, maintains and charges the battery packs would do any necessary inspections on the battery packs. All the vehicle operator would need to do is insure the battery pack had been properly installed at the time of the exchange, a procedure that, if the system has been designed properly, would take a handful of minutes or less.

It would make far more economic sense to rent the batteries than to buy them since then you would have to install new infrastructure everywhere you would need to do a battery swap, maintain a crew to operate that infrastructure, charge the batteries, swap them out, etc. Very few, if any, fleets are large enough to be able to absorb that cost and keep everything working 24/7 (idle equipment doesn't just not make money, it loses money). Do you have your own fueling stations everywhere your trucks go (assuming your fleet isn't local only)? The cost of renting the batteries would include charging and maintenance costs which would be far less than individual fleets doing it themselves for the same reasons homes and most business get their electric power from the power company instead of generating their own, get their water from a utility instead of having their own wells and water treatment plants, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShrimpBrime View Post

...
Quote:
The truck owners wouldn't have to do their own testing and PMs

Very totally wrong. Preventative maintenance includes the entire vehicle. Not just batteries. It just so happens that on our DOT sheets, the batteries must be checked and maintained whether it's being fastened down properly to simple things like terminal corrosion.

It's obvious you have no idea or any clue about DOT safety while the batteries are just one small part of a PM but very much included. Batteries are ALWAYS tested on a wet PM (B) and ALWAYS inspected on a dry PM (A).

And just because the system is full electric doesn't mean we have to stop or get to stop DOT inspections and preventative maintaining of our tractors.

Additional comment:

In case you are not aware of Tesla's CARS, the entire battery compartment is the entire bottom of the undercarriage. The entire vehicle is lifted off the ground for inspection, maintenance, repairs and replacement.

Diesel tractors are not so easily lifted off the ground ya know......

Again, you are still locked in the past. You are assuming DOT regs would be exactly the same as they are now for the new technology. The batteries you have in your rigs now are nowhere nearly the same as what will be used in the electric trucks so the regs and inspections techniques will have to be different. Otherwise, it would be like using the rules for a motorcycle on a class 8 truck. Again, the batteries will still be inspected and maintained; it just won't be you doing it.

I'm thinking Elon Musk is smart enough to ensure that the new electric trucks will not have to be lifted off the ground to change out the batteries. He has already demonstrated it could be done in as little as 90 seconds in ideal conditions so I seriously doubt lifting the truck off the ground is involved (and even if it is, he apparently has worked out how to do that).

Are the new electric trucks for everyone? Heck no. Will they be immediately be adopted? Of course not, it will be a long time before there is widespread adoption. That doesn't change the fact they will eventually become a major presence on our roads. I'm old enough I may never see it happen but I have no doubt it will. The infernal combustion engine is doomed to eventual extinction, the same way steam power and horse drawn transportation is already pretty much history.
     
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post #137 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by budgetgamer120 View Post

What would you maintain on an electric tractor though. The electric motors and the battery? confused.gif


I would assume it is battery coolant and brake fluids like any other EV headscratch.gif

If you like to maintain then Evs aren't for you.

On a larger commercial EV there isn't much at all to maintain as the fleet owner/operator. In terms of fluids you will have coolant for the battery I am sure but that will require minimal work as it will be a closed system. No transmission, no differentials, no torque converter, and none of the associated work. Depending on the brake technology used there may be some brake related fluid needs, unless the motors do the braking.

Each wheel hub assembly will likely have its own electric motor with only associated power and data lines running to it from the battery, thus the reason for being able to get rid of all the previously mentioned systems. In this configuration it may be possible to, as mentioned above, use the engine configuration for braking - paired with air-brakes maybe.

There is very little to maintain on an electric platform. With the advantage of having on-demand power at each wheel hub, even on the trailers due to small size of the technology, giving more control and efficiency in hauling.

EDIT:

In terms of the daily inspections and maintenance prior to roll-out, that gets a HELL of lot quicker in terms of vehicle fitness.

EDIT 2:

Another huge advantage to an EV with motors on each wheel hub is depending on the layout it may be possible to have one assembly go into neutral if there were a failure in it. Let's say there are 4 motors and one does have an issue, instead of the load being dead on the side of the road the failed motor may kick into neutral to free spin the wheels associated to it. This could allow the 3 working motors to pick up the slack to finish the trip, maybe at 55 MPH instead of 60 MPH, maybe without an impact to the speed at all.

It is far easier to have redundant systems when they are electrical than when mechanical**.
Edited by PostalTwinkie - 4/30/17 at 3:27pm
    
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post #138 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by budgetgamer120 View Post

What would you maintain on an electric tractor though. The electric motors and the battery? confused.gif


I would assume it is battery coolant and brake fluids like any other EV headscratch.gif

If you like to maintain then Evs aren't for you.

On a larger commercial EV there isn't much at all to maintain as the fleet owner/operator. In terms of fluids you will have coolant for the battery I am sure but that will require minimal work as it will be a closed system. No transmission, no differentials, no torque converter, and none of the associated work. Depending on the brake technology used there may be some brake related fluid needs, unless the motors do the braking.

Each wheel hub assembly will likely have its own electric motor with only associated power and data lines running to it from the battery, thus the reason for being able to get rid of all the previously mentioned systems. In this configuration it may be possible to, as mentioned above, use the engine configuration for braking - paired with air-brakes maybe.

There is very little to maintain on an electric platform. With the advantage of having on-demand power at each wheel hub, even on the trailers due to small size of the technology, giving more control and efficiency in hauling.

Regenerative braking works only at higher speeds and there are limits to how effective it is so there will still be a need for conventional brakes like the air brakes used now, which need no less than daily checks for slack adjustment, operation and lining thickness. Tire condition and pressure (and I don't mean merely whacking them with a hammer), air systems, steering and suspension components, lights, the fifth wheel, etc. will still need to be checked at least daily. I seriously doubt the motors will be direct coupled to the wheels so there probably will still be some gear reduction, possibly multispeed, that will need fluid checks. I doubt there will be any motors on the trailers; too many compatibility issues for starters. Trailers aren't permanently married to the trucks.
     
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post #139 of 334
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShrimpBrime View Post

Why would a truck owner not maintain his vehicle and the components on that vehicle? That's absurd.

Right now our newest tractor with a diesel motor costs about 115,000 dollars. I wouldn't be interested in purchasing a tractor where it's going to cost 150,000 dollars for full electric, then "rent" batteries, on top of the charging costs.

This tech has a very long way to go before it seems logical to replace anything we have not.
Very totally wrong. Preventative maintenance includes the entire vehicle. Not just batteries. It just so happens that on our DOT sheets, the batteries must be checked and maintained whether it's being fastened down properly to simple things like terminal corrosion.

It's obvious you have no idea or any clue about DOT safety while the batteries are just one small part of a PM but very much included. Batteries are ALWAYS tested on a wet PM (B) and ALWAYS inspected on a dry PM (A).

And just because the system is full electric doesn't mean we have to stop or get to stop DOT inspections and preventative maintaining of our tractors.

Additional comment:

In case you are not aware of Tesla's CARS, the entire battery compartment is the entire bottom of the undercarriage. The entire vehicle is lifted off the ground for inspection, maintenance, repairs and replacement.

Diesel tractors are not so easily lifted off the ground ya know......
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald View Post

Regenerative braking works only at higher speeds and there are limits to how effective it is so there will still be a need for conventional brakes like the air brakes used now, which need no less than daily checks for slack adjustment, operation and lining thickness. Tire condition and pressure (and I don't mean merely whacking them with a hammer), air systems, steering and suspension components, lights, the fifth wheel, etc. will still need to be checked at least daily. I seriously doubt the motors will be direct coupled to the wheels so there probably will still be some gear reduction, possibly multispeed, that will need fluid checks. I doubt there will be any motors on the trailers; too many compatibility issues for starters. Trailers aren't permanently married to the trucks.

Regen brakes will be good for off hill.

I am not sure about your claim about only being good at high speeds. I watched a video of chrysler phev mini van in electric mode. Gained 1km of range just by driving around the city and braking when needed.
Edited by budgetgamer120 - 4/30/17 at 7:11pm
post #140 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by budgetgamer120 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShrimpBrime View Post

Why would a truck owner not maintain his vehicle and the components on that vehicle? That's absurd.

Right now our newest tractor with a diesel motor costs about 115,000 dollars. I wouldn't be interested in purchasing a tractor where it's going to cost 150,000 dollars for full electric, then "rent" batteries, on top of the charging costs.

This tech has a very long way to go before it seems logical to replace anything we have not.
Very totally wrong. Preventative maintenance includes the entire vehicle. Not just batteries. It just so happens that on our DOT sheets, the batteries must be checked and maintained whether it's being fastened down properly to simple things like terminal corrosion.

It's obvious you have no idea or any clue about DOT safety while the batteries are just one small part of a PM but very much included. Batteries are ALWAYS tested on a wet PM (B) and ALWAYS inspected on a dry PM (A).

And just because the system is full electric doesn't mean we have to stop or get to stop DOT inspections and preventative maintaining of our tractors.

Additional comment:

In case you are not aware of Tesla's CARS, the entire battery compartment is the entire bottom of the undercarriage. The entire vehicle is lifted off the ground for inspection, maintenance, repairs and replacement.

Diesel tractors are not so easily lifted off the ground ya know......
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald View Post

Regenerative braking works only at higher speeds and there are limits to how effective it is so there will still be a need for conventional brakes like the air brakes used now, which need no less than daily checks for slack adjustment, operation and lining thickness. Tire condition and pressure (and I don't mean merely whacking them with a hammer), air systems, steering and suspension components, lights, the fifth wheel, etc. will still need to be checked at least daily. I seriously doubt the motors will be direct coupled to the wheels so there probably will still be some gear reduction, possibly multispeed, that will need fluid checks. I doubt there will be any motors on the trailers; too many compatibility issues for starters. Trailers aren't permanently married to the trucks.

Regen brakes will be god for off hill.

I am not sure about your claim about only being good at high speeds. I watched a video of chrysler phev mini van in electric mode. Gained 1km of range just by driving around the city and braking when needed.

The slower you go, the less braking power you can get from regenerative braking. It's the same as engine braking; there is a limit to how much you can get and, the slower you go, the less braking you can get; you can't use engine braking to bring a vehicle to a complete stop, for example, unless you don't mind taking a mile to do so.
     
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