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post #91 of 334
don't forget the production of batteries, the manufacturing process is far from being "eco-friendly".
post #92 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald View Post

The old gear jammers said the same thing when automatic trannies first came out. Now, most of the big rigs have full automatics because they get better fuel mileage and actually need less maintenance, especially with newer drivers (how many of you can double clutch and shift a crash box without grinding the gears or keep up with a main box and a brownie without missing the shift? Of course, if you are really good, you don't even need the clutch.). And I have talked to semi drivers (and even drove a few semis around for loading and unloading).

I've driven and worked on diesels worked on electric vehicles in warehouses (Forklifts) for a living - I can tell you these won't be so readily accepted until the problems with range, reliability, cost to maintain and repair and the additional weight the batteries have are solved.

The biggest thing would be the additional weight from the batteries, there are limits to how much weight a truck can haul per axle. These vehicles are constantly being checked for weight at DOT scale hoses and with their porta-scales and it's nothing to write a ticket for being overweight to them - Not to mention the reason for the weight limit is to keep these vehicles from destroying the roadways with this excess weight.
The fact that downtime with these can and normally is costly won't sit well either since if it's sitting it's losing $$ regardless of who owns it. Parts for these electrics are normally more expensive than those for diesels too and it's not just anyone that can do the work either.

Not to mention at times trying to figure out a problem can lead to extreme baldness...... That's always bad on the company's bank account and your hairline.

In other words there are times when the manuals and code books can't help and you just have to dig deep and get lucky to find a problem if you find it at all. A wire that makes and breaks connection for example can drive you up the wall just trying to find it. With many such vehicles normal flexing of the assembly while in operation can cause these kinds of problems over time and make you want to "Fix it" permenantly with a can of gas and a match or something..... At least it woudn't cause any more problems that way but obviously you can't do that..... (But it would make you feel better about it).

The fact sometimes simply detecting something "Out of range" for a moment will shut it down won't be well received either. Been there and done it on both sides of it myself and I seriously doubt we'll be seeing many if any incorporated into any major fleets anytime soon.
Most likely there will be a few but the vast majority of trucks will remain diesel for sometime to come at least, there's simply too many things that still needs to be solved before this becomes a viable option.

BTW I can double-clutch the trans in a truck without having to grind gears.
Edited by Kryton - 4/29/17 at 7:36am
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post #93 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by budgetgamer120 View Post


You have any proof to discredit EV Semis?

A video above shows a Model X drag racing while towing a 4000 pound car.

 

Drag races are fine. But look up any video of tesla's racing on regular circuits. About 1 minute in, the batteries start to overheat and power is limited. Of course they would have that solved on a semi, but there is still a reason why Ford only need 6.7L to make a 450hp diesel, and semis need 12 or so liters. That's how they live a long reliable life. So you'd need to at least double the size of the motors in the tesla to rate them for contentious duty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShrimpBrime View Post

Electric Tractors will not be common place for well more than 10 years.

To many greeds in the Big oil industry.

Besides the fact that most common tractors have more issues with DPF and DEF electrical. Sensors, wiring and even the ACM, BCM and can include failure of ECM modules.

Say no to wires.

Batteries blow up.

Saw mention of locomotive, diesel/electric...... Well it took about two decades of this particular technology to catch the horse power of simple steam locomotives.....

In our fleet of 67 tractors, our oldest models are the most reliable. Very very few electrical components to repair. Oh the water pump is bad? No problem 1 hour fix. Electrical? Well that requires a lap top, expensive software, hours of schooling and nothing but..... more parts more problems. More electrical more problems.

Now build a tractor completely of electrical and drive that through the salt belt of America. Good freaking luck.

 

It wasn't until the very late 90s and effectively 2000s that we started seeing locomotives with over 6000hp like the largest of the steam locomotives. Not only that, but most steam locos were actually faster. :o Granted, the hp side of things was mostly from a policy of more, smaller locomotives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrews2547 View Post
 

Maybe in the US, but in Europe they would be great if truck stops had a place to charge them. There is a lot more space in semi trucks for a lot of batteries compared to cars, if they can get 600 mile ranges out of them (I'd be surprised if the range is 600 miles or less) and can fully charge them in 2 hours, then they're good enough to be used properly on the roads in Europe.

 

Electric motors could also produce significantly more torque than turbo diesel motors. You can get electric motors that can produce over 800kW, 4000Nm (~1100hp, ~2950lb-ft), as a comparison, the most powerful commercially available truck you can get in Europe at the moment (Volvo FH16 750) "only" has 560kW, 3550Nm (~750hp, ~2620lb-ft).

 

It might could work in Europe.

 

Torque isn't and issue with modern truck gearing Andrews. You only really need the torque for starting off and shifting on grades and trucks have proven themselves to be capable of hauling well more than the legal weight limit. (Eg, heavy hauling applications)

 


 

A lot of people in this thread are understandable supportive of this because electricity is more efficient that small diesels. But, how much efficiency is left after charging and discharging the battery (both make heat) and losses from the original power production (probably coal)? Not to mention making new batteries every x miles. Why not go straight from the horse's mouth with electric trains? Hell, any train.

 

Even with a theoretically perfectly efficient truck you will still see a lot of loss from the aerodynamic and rolling losses. Why not utilize the under-utilized rail system in America? A 600hp semi can pull 1 trailer, a 6000hp train can pull 30+ cars, of more than double the weight. That is a better idea IMO than clogging the interstates with autonomous, electric trucks.

 

One last issue I forgot to mention:

 

Let's say a fleet cashes in on this new technology, and buys 100 trucks. Then Tesla decides it's not making them money and pulls the program, now you have thousands of useless electric trucks because no one can charge the batteries, and you just bankrupted company with fleet A.

 

Shoot, meant to edit first post and not make a new one. If a mod would like to combine them, that would be appreciated.

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post #94 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

30% is the average, the most recent ones have over 40% from what i recall.
so yeah, 60%~70% of the fuel's energy is turned into waste heat.
I thought power plants were about 30 to 40% efficiency. So would that make the overall energy efficiency gain of using electric roughly 0%? With the inefficiency shifted from the motor to the power plant?
I'm not complaining or anything, CO2 is where carbon based life gets its carbon from after all.
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post #95 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidiaftw12 View Post

One last issue I forgot to mention:

Let's say a fleet cashes in on this new technology, and buys 100 trucks. Then Tesla decides it's not making them money and pulls the program, now you have thousands of useless electric trucks because no one can charge the batteries, and you just bankrupted company with fleet A.

Shoot, meant to edit first post and not make a new one. If a mod would like to combine them, that would be appreciated.

That kind of attitude would stop progress in its tracks. Yes, there is always a risk when adopting new technology but there are ways to mitigate the worst of that risk, such as gradual adoption instead of complete across the board.

The primary reason diesel/electric locomotives took so long to start matching the pony power of the more massive of the old steam engines (they actually haven't yet and probably never will) is it was more efficient to just add and subtract locomotives to a train based on the total load than to have single monsters pulling smaller and larger loads. It allowed for adding and removing extra locomotives where a steep grade began or ended, again increasing efficiency. Also, trains are rarely the length they used to be anymore.
     
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post #96 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by rluker5 View Post

I thought power plants were about 30 to 40% efficiency. So would that make the overall energy efficiency gain of using electric roughly 0%? With the inefficiency shifted from the motor to the power plant?
I'm not complaining or anything, CO2 is where carbon based life gets its carbon from after all.

more or less yeah, electricity from diesel plants would have roughly lower energy efficiency simply due to transmission losses.
however this eliminates emissions from the cities and other areas, and concentrate most of it into a designated area.
post #97 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by budgetgamer120 View Post

Why would an operator needs to work on it? Low maintenance like electric cars.


The business model is rental for short hauls.

Anything else?

You do relize that most commercial over the road trucks work 24/7 and usually have a team of people from 2-5. When I drove locally in as gas tanker truck as a driver in Los Angeles the trucks were 12 hour shifts 24/7 365 days a year non stop. We would hit a million miles in a couple years. And yes the trucks would go out of service for a couple of days for maintenance. I really do not think people understand the just how big the magnitude commercial truck drivers do for American people.

Now I am not saying it is a bad idea but it really needs to complete with we have today on truck prices and horse power and cost of maintenance ect..

Toyota transport that delivers the cars and pick-up trucks have a hydrogen-powered truck that gives zero-emission, but can only do 200 miles then you need to fill it up again. Most trucks can do 500+ miles before a fillup.

See here

Edited by Lu(ky - 4/29/17 at 8:41am
    
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post #98 of 334
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lu(ky View Post

You do relize that most commercial over the road trucks work 24/7 and usually have a team of people from 2-5. When I drove locally in as gas tanker truck as a driver in Los Angeles the trucks were 12 hour shifts 24/7 365 days a year non stop. We would hit a million miles in a couple years. And yes the trucks would go out of service for a couple of days for maintenance. I really do not think people understand the just how big the magnitude commercial truck drivers do for American people.

Now I am not saying it is a bad idea but it really needs to complete with we have today on truck prices and horse power and cost of maintenance ect..

Toyota transport that delivers the cars and pick-up trucks have a hydrogen-powered truck that gives zero-emission, but can only do 200 miles then you need to fill it up again. Most trucks can do 500+ miles before a fillup.

See here

Obviously these aren't for that purpose. It wouldn't work there.
post #99 of 334
I'm not a fan of EV cars as I just prefer what ICE offers instead, however I do see commercial trucks as a good platform for EV motors. The main issue right now to me is charge time and of course range as always. Semi's need to be back on the road and fast. It's one thing to charge at a rest stop if they are there for the night, etc. but if they need to keep going and are a bit low the charge time is going to really play a factor.

I see this taking over smaller fleet trucks like UPS, local delivery food trucks, etc. far faster and they seem like the perfect platform to move forward on. The technology is going to have to improve quite a bit before it really takes over long distance trucking.
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post #100 of 334
i think delivery trucks for grocer and restaurant food-stuffs would work, they only do a single round-trip along their specified routes, so after thats done they could simply recharge all of the remaining day.
the only concern is whether it has enough stored energy to sustain an entire day's worth of round-trip, though that could be easily solved by simply adding more batteries.


on a side note, a power outage would seriously cripple this type of system, they'd literally cause everything involved stop to a screeching halt.
so you're probably not only looking at investing on an EV truck and some spare battery packs, but also on a generator with a large enough capacity to recharge all trucks during emergencies.
Edited by epic1337 - 4/29/17 at 9:14am
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