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[KitGuru] AMD Radeon RX Vega caught hiding in plain sight - Page 48

post #471 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by gamervivek View Post

One reason could be that the frame rates are too low at 4k so that running out of VRAM and stuttering doesn't make much of a difference. If the cards were able of 60fps at 4k, you'd see more separation.

Maybe AMD's new HBCC would work wonders, and I've posted here during Fury's release that HBM bandwidth can help with lesser memory by swapping out textures quicker than the 8GB Hawaii card, but that remains to be seen.

That answer is completely absurd. The largest use of VRAM is frame buffers and textures. The very things that increase alongside resolution. If anything, high resolutions like 4K would completely kill a card with too-low VRAM, not hide it as you suggest.

As for HBM's reduced time to unload old textures and reload new textures making up for too low of a total capacity, that is total nonsense as well. Forcing all operations to swap memory increases frame time by several orders of magnitude. HBM is not several orders of magnitude faster than GDDR5X. Heck, it is not even several orders of magnitude faster than GDDR5.
Edited by Zero4549 - 5/4/17 at 1:20pm
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post #472 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

Nobody would buy a GTX 1080 equivalent with only 4 GB of VRAM halfway through 2017 for $350 or more (a best case scenario if AMD were to undercut Nvidia by that much), that's ludicrous. Adjusting settings after paying that much because if you don't you risk being run over by a GTX 1060 6 GB or an RX 580 8 GB? Come on.

Look again at the graphs I posted. 4 GB of VRAM in that performance segment is a ship that has sailed. 4 GB is for 1080p gaming and it's cutting it close.
Some wouldn't buy it, but I think that the benches for the time it is selling will convince most that it is fine. : https://www.techpowerup.com/231093/amd-vega-high-bandwidth-cache-controller-improves-minimum-and-average-fps
That and you have to adjust settings on all midrange cards if you care about framerates.
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post #473 of 664
You don't really need more memory until you do, then you regret not having it. I'd rather splurge for extra vram just in case a game or mod may require the extra space down the road. I'd rather upgrade on my own timetable instead of feeling forced into it.

But that's just my uninformed opinion on VRAM :^)
post #474 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Patekar View Post

You don't really need more memory until you do, then you regret not having it. I'd rather splurge for extra vram just in case a game or mod may require the extra space down the road. I'd rather upgrade on my own timetable instead of feeling forced into it.

But that's just my uninformed opinion on VRAM :^)
I have the same opinion. But I know not everyone else does from the sales of cards with less than the most. This little fuss was about whether it would be bad for the lowest Vega variants to have 4GB hbm btw. Personally, I still think they would be decent cards.
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post #475 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero4549 View Post

That answer is completely absurd. The largest use of VRAM is frame buffers and textures. The very things that increase alongside resolution. If anything, high resolutions like 4K would completely kill a card with too-low VRAM, not hide it as you suggest.

The effect is hidden because the other card is also struggling to keep up the framerate, as in processing power has become the bigger bottleneck than lack of vram so the difference isn't as pronounced as you'd expect it to be.
Quote:
As for HBM's reduced time to unload old textures and reload new textures making up for too low of a total capacity, that is total nonsense as well. Forcing all operations to swap memory increases frame time by several orders of magnitude. HBM is not several orders of magnitude faster than GDDR5X. Heck, it is not even several orders of magnitude faster than GDDR5.

It doesn't have to dump out everything, and it's not really 'total nonsense', Koduri said something to the same effect as well. If you do have to throw out everything, then it would surely be a problem and everything will be reduced to a crawl.
    
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post #476 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by rluker5 View Post

I have the same opinion. But I know not everyone else does from the sales of cards with less than the most. This little fuss was about whether it would be bad for the lowest Vega variants to have 4GB hbm btw. Personally, I still think they would be decent cards.

It probably would be decent for the majority of people. I'd still opt for the variant with the larger memory pool though... just to be safe :^) Its more psychological than anything probably.
post #477 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by budgetgamer120 View Post

I keep hearing that... But how is the FuryX doing so good with only 4GB ram?

Because the R9 series is capable of utilizing dynamic vram by utilizing system ram. Even though system ram is slower than local vram high speed ddr4 ram can see fps gains. The hbm on the fury x has better utilization of dynamic vram usage than gddr5 in very high textures for rise of the tomb raider.



https://m.hardocp.com/article/2016/02/29/rise_tomb_raider_graphics_features_performance/4

Would I recommend a 4gb vega card? Probably not. 8gb of dedicated local vram is better than 4, but depending on benchmarks, budget, and resolution we'll soon see especially where the full vega 10 8gb model falls.
post #478 of 664
I would never go back to having 4gb's of Vram, I never had any issues with my 970's at 1080p but I did have problems with a few games when i switched to 1440p. This is likely due to poor game programing since I could run 4k in most games without any vram issues, but poor programing/optimization is the reality we live in so I will stick with 8gb as the minimum from here on out.
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post #479 of 664
After gaming with 4gb hbm cards for years ive found like 2 or 3 games that completly wipe out the vram @ 4k. At 1440p you will never suffer vram issues. If people commenting ever used a 4gb hbm card they would sing a different tale. Its always directly compared to gddr5, but its a different technology and doesnt suffer the same limitations as gddr5
Edited by Tgrove - 5/4/17 at 4:20pm
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post #480 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by rluker5 View Post

1. You should let the devs know to raise their vram reqs/recommendations.
2. HBCC.
3. My outdated 5760 cuda cores are more of a hindrance to me in games than my 3+3GB vram.

To 1. "Devs know it all?"
You meant the same devs that thought 4Gb would be a good idea with Fiji cards?
FYI - devs have nothing to say when it comes to economical decisions. That is entirely in the ballpark of the bean counters.

To 2. "HBCC"

If we should have learned something within the last 20-30 years, it's that caches are no permanent solution. Even if they work, the do only for a short time until you need to get bigger cache or just another cache-layer on top of the first one. To rely on such tricks shows AMD is really desperate for compensation with low HBM capacities.

To 3. "????"

Don't get your point. The only Nvidia card with 5760 CUDA-cores I know is the Titan Z with 12GB. You will never run into VRAM limitation with that. rawpower is another topic, not entirely related to the topic. Your 3+3GB could be a 1060? I say 6GB are just fine for mid-range graphics cards. That amount is barely acceptable, but in the high-end it has to be 8-12GB. Future games will not demand less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Patekar View Post

You don't really need more memory until you do, then you regret not having it. I'd rather splurge for extra vram just in case a game or mod may require the extra space down the road. I'd rather upgrade on my own timetable instead of feeling forced into it.

But that's just my uninformed opinion on VRAM :^)

Same here. Was upgrading into a dead end quite some time in my personal history. Learned my lesson and go by
bigger VRAM >>>> smaller ones with tricks.

Ironaically this phrase has been used by AMD fans all the time when they had more VRAM available. Now suddenly it is turned around when AMD is on the opposide spectrum? Give me a break. Talk about hypocrites.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjdubb View Post

I would never go back to having 4gb's of Vram, I never had any issues with my 970's at 1080p but I did have problems with a few games when i switched to 1440p. This is likely due to poor game programing since I could run 4k in most games without any vram issues, but poor programing/optimization is the reality we live in so I will stick with 8gb as the minimum from here on out.

Game programmers are the breaking point here. Like usual, AMD featuers which have to be supported by the devs are either very shaky in performance or need tons of optimization to work properly. I don't see money and time starved studios to work on some excotic AMD stuff, they should spend all their time make the game run without bugs and of course the content itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tgrove View Post

After gaming with 4gb hbm cards for years ive found like 2 or 3 games that completly wipe out the vram @ 4k. At 1440p you will never suffer vram issues

A very bold statement. We said that at Fury / Fury X launcht too. It wasn't true back then and is not now. Games get more demanding as we speak. Part of this is driven by the consoles with 6+ GB, growing each generation. In the future 4GB will not even be enough for 1080p mid- to high-settings. Once HDR and other stuff goes mainstream you need tons of ressources on your GPU / CPU system.

1440p is known to be more demanding for VRAM and GPU rawpower. The textures get bigger / better and the screen has to render more details at once. Especially open-world games suffer here.
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